Interview with Michael Asher, March 1981 - Part 1


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Michael Asher: Ah, I, I can, uh
Jan Butterfield: [interrupts]] This is a space trip.
Michael Asher: No. No. This...

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Jan Butterfield: [Jan interrupts] This is a space trip. These are...
Michael Asher: [[Michael interrupts]] No. This is Kellogg's.

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Jan Butterfield: This is Kellogg's! OK.
Michael Asher: Don't get caught up... [[laughs]]
Jan Butterfield: For God's sake!

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Michael Asher: [[laughs]]

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I have to figure out, the direction, the directions but, all I can say is all the corresponding sides have a coat of, of paint on, which absorbs white, absorbs light [[he corrects himself]]. Pardon me.

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The white paint which absorbs light. The same dye as the regular white paint, kind of like these and then, so that that other walls, this wall and this wall and that wall which face one another have the regular color paint and this wall has a special paint on it [[inaudible]].

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Jan Butterfield: And what have you in that absorbs...
Michael Asher: [[Michael interrupts]] And this absorbs light, this absorbs light. But the corner of that will reflect it a little bit.

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Jan Butterfield: OK and when it does absorb it what happens to it?
Michael Asher: Ah. It just, it just reduces it considerably eventually. In other words, if it had this paint on it, that would be a kind of large[[inaudible]]

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Jan Butterfield: So, there's no balance.

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Michael Asher: There's very little. Yeah, but it's still wet. And then I put the doors on it and I took the head off.

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Jan Butterfield: Did you alter the base boards [[inaudible]]?
Michael Asher: [[Crosstalk]] No. I didn't touch anything else.
Jan Butterfield: Did you [[inaudible]]
Michael Asher: Yeah. Yeah

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Jan Butterfield: OK. Now [[inaudible]] now the skin [[inaudible]]

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Now that material is standard [[inaudible]]
Michael Asher: Uh-huh [[affirmative]]

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Jan Butterfield: And it's rolled and [[?]].
Michael Asher: Yes.

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Jan Butterfield: [[?]]

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Jan Butterfield: And when you enter the room, the light level is very low it seemed.

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Michael Asher: No. That wasn't set to be low. The only thing is that it, uh, it is low because as you can see, the hallway is black and so, it absorbs the light...

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Jan Butterfield: Ah.
Michael Asher: The hallway absorbs lots of light --
Jan Butterfield: Okay.
Michael Asher: And I didn't have an actual light with me.

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Jan Butterfield: And that's an open door, you see.
Michael Asher: Oh, yeah.
Jan Butterfield: Ok, [[??]]

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Michael Asher: Yeah, and so, and so basically, you know, I don't mind, there being, I mean, it's possible but it's not anything about that.
Jan Butterfield: Ok, but there was, there was not light in that room?

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Michael Asher: There was, there was, there was enough, I mean, we tried to put those, I don't know, lights in the hallway, we tried to bounce, bounce actual light in, you know?

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Jan Butterfield: Ok, so when I entered the muse, just real quick.

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Michael Asher: Well! It just gets very, uh, hm? Well, let me show you the page -- [[paper flapping]] [[unintelligible]]-- and then I can, I can explain it.

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[[paper flapping]]

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Michael Asher: Ok, now --
Jan Butterfield: Where's your sculpture garden?
Michael Asher: Sculpture garden's over here.

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[[silence]]

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Michael Asher: Um, we walk down this way, ok, or you can go through this way.

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Now what happens is, as you - as you come in here, uh, you, the sound is absorbed more and more and more to the point here where you just hear hallway sounds. But with that hallway sound you hear also -

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It gets to be sort of a mixture - a sound mixture - right here where [[exhales]]

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of exterior noise and, well pretty much exterior noise.
Jan Butterfield: Where's the black hole? It's right where you finger is, or is it here?
Michael Asher: Both - places. So there are two openings, two doorways, they're not doors, they're passages.

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Jan Butterfield: OK
Michael Asher: And, um, Now at this point where it's absorbing quite a bit at the center, then if you walk into this corner or that corner, it just absorbs that much more.

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So it's made on a, it's made symmetrically to do this, so as you pass-- pass through it, it gets more and more dense and then less and less. Ah, but if you decide to turn it gets denser and denser and denser and denser and denser.

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Jan Butterfield: Is it wooly in there? Is it like a....
Michael Asher: No, no, uh, ah. It's almost like, ah, it's almost like plywood.
Jan Butterfield: Huh.

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Michael Asher: I mean because it's a very closed texture. It just so happens, that it's built up, I have, it's built up on the outside with 3 different walls so that in fact you do have, and then it's isolated from the rest of the building.

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Jan Butterfield: That's right, yeah, OK.
Michael Asher: So that you do have, you do have, um, acoustical.
Jan Butterfield: Already.

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Michael Asher: Already, whatchcall, I don't know what you call it here. Then you have a pun of just air. So it, it, damps itself. Then you have another wall with acoustical material in it, and then another pun and then acoustical.

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Michael Asher: And the pink stuff

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Jan Butterfield: Mmhmm

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Michael Asher: And it's all the fiberglass

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Michael Asher: And then you just have the final course is that stuff that looks is practically transparent.

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Jan Butterfield: Oh but this is existing

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Michael Asher: No, no no

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Jan Butterfield: This is what you put in

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Michael Asher: No, I put all those walls in

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Jan Butterfield: Geez, you're smart

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Michael Asher: Yeah, I put all the walls in. So this had 3. This is constructed that way

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Jan Butterfield: I thought you were saying [[inaudible]]

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Michael Asher: No.

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Michael Asher: This construction is the same way. And this construction, this construction is the same way.

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Michael Asher: And, like I say, all these walls. Uh, the path, the beams in which they sat

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Michael Asher: Were isolated, or the studs were isolated from the rest of the building with, with rubber

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Michael Asher: So the fact that you weren't getting subsonic sounds, normally you were getting, you were just getting, you were just getting

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Jan Butterfield: Oh, that's interesting

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Michael Asher: You're just getting, it's total absorption

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Jan Butterfield: See, I don't even know to know that

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Michael Asher: It's--

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Jan Butterfield: I don't even know what subsonic sound is, but you see, I understand especially in New York.

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Michael Asher: Yeah, well

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Jan Butterfield: That doesn't mean I know about it.

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Michael Asher: There is there's a simple reason

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Jan Butterfield: You get that rumbling.

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Michael Asher: Yeah there's a simple reason, that, um

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Michael Asher: The train goes underneath

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Michael Asher: Yeah. So and basically, basically people are touching or walking on this, in this other area anyway so they might

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Michael Asher: Any sort of rattling of the walls or hitting of them might also cause reverberance which I didn't want.

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Jan Butterfield: Now, were you-- did you feel you were successful in getting rid of all that external sound or did you work especially to do

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Michael Asher: I didn't want to. On this axis here at all.

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Michael Asher: All I wanted to do was on this axis here. So where it was most dense, it had to be most dense at this part and that part

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Jan Butterfield: How did you--how were you..
Michael Asher: It was engineered though, I mean...it was, it was professionally engineered.

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Jan Butterfield: OK. So I was going to say how did you, how did you know what you do with the density?
Michael Asher: I didn't know. I mean, I had to have an engineer make all the calculations and then he kept coming back and working on it and making more and more calculations.

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And then as soon as we got it to a point where he knew that it was working, I mean. He kind of [[unintelligible]]... but it was actually the man who works here and helped, helped, he helped. Ah, he was the main man with his own experience.

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Jan Butterfield: Well, that's interesting because that explains some stuff I didn't understand about that.
Michael Asher: Oh, it's very, it's pretty sophisticated.
Jan Butterfield: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Asher: I mean in that sense. But, it's very simple, once again, once again. I hate to say that.

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Jan Butterfield: Well, no, but I mean, that's part of what makes that interesting, you know. When you..
Michael Asher: Well, if you take the work just before it, it deals with sound reflection, only sound reflection and this deals with sound absorption. So, all I'm doing, I'm doing a very fundamental thing with sound. I'm, I'm, I'm, I tune the room. The work prior to this, I tuned the area that I was using...

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Jan Butterfield: Now, which work are you talking about?
Michael Asher: The [[Maria?]]
Jan Butterfield: Yeah

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Michael Asher: Ah, I like that it never shows up in the picture.
Jan Butterfield: This is now, this is now

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Michael Asher: Yeah. I haven't even looked at it. Because then some of those views are
Jan Butterfield: I know. Do you want to take it out? I'm very careful about not picking any of these up as we move them. I need the 3 dimension. Trust me. [[laughs]]

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Have you seen those stamps that Durrell has?
Michael Asher: No.
Jan Butterfield: He has these like $35 wine ...

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Jan Butterfield: Can you get that on camera? [[laughter]]

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Jan Butterfield: But it actually is kinda neat.

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Jan Butterfield: How about that?

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Jan Butterfield: Cancel it. Cancel it. Cancel it.

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Jan Butterfield: Send it with this.

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[[inaudible]]

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Jan Butterfield: That's just how, that's just how. Okay.

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Jan Butterfield: I mean, I [[very visually oriented?]].

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Michael Asher: Okay.

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[[stapling sounds]]

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Jan Butterfield: Where did your interest in sound come from initially?

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Jan Butterfield: I mean, obviously you were using air initially.

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Michael Asher: I was six.

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Michael Asher: but yeah, yeah.

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Jan Butterfield: Or lack of, really.

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Michael Asher: I mean I, but it was only to define some aspects of it

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[[inaudible]]

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Michael Asher: But I was sound scaping one.

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Michael Asher: [[Air seam??]]. It started it became more [[inaudible]]

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Jan Butterfield: Did you ever show [[inaudible]]

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Michael Asher: I showed [[??]]

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Jan Butterfield: I was gonna ask you that, I was gonna ask you that before and I didn't.

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Michael Asher: I could be wrong. I showed two.

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Jan Butterfield: And you were showing [[??]] shows?

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Michael Asher: Both were

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Michael Asher: Yeah, I showed two, uh three.

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Michael Asher: Two. I showed two.

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Jan Butterfield: And you were where?

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Michael Asher: OnE in '69 and one in [[ Fort ??]]

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Michael Asher: There might have been 4 but I--

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Michael Asher: It's just, you know, [[inaudible]] so now I just write up [[inaudible]]

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Michael Asher: So, I don't know.

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Jan Butterfield: Yeah, I know I know

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Michael Asher: Everybody knows.

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Jan Butterfield: No, nobody knows this. [[inaudible]] students

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Michael Asher: Yeah, Henry always tells me

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Jan Butterfield: Yeah, he always loves the students

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Jan Butterfield: um alright let me...
Michael Asher: I always appreciate...
Jan Butterfield: Just stand over there.
Michael Asher:

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Its a logistical progression, I mean, one thing is a logical progression, one minute its like your doing something which simply not too critical.

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But we've been attacked by them, its like, because you know why not just some of them. So I think, I think its perfect that its been reprogrammed to make a reverberant room. I mean, it's not perfect but it just seems, it seems a matter of course to make a reverberant room, one that's totally reverberant than one that's, ah, totally insensitive to sound.

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Jan Butterfield: Um hum for sure, and the point is there's no difference between [[inaudible]]

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Michael Asher: yeah
Jan Butterfield: but it was highly interesting [[inaudible]]
Michael Asher: well in 1969, the one at [[inaudible]]

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Jan Butterfield: When did you do, when did you do [[Air in September?]] in your studio, I mean created it.
Michael Asher: I don't know. I'm not [[inaudible]] [[laughs]] Astin Reed??, that was in 1968 or 66, 67. I mean...

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Jan Butterfield: What were you doing prior to [[inaudible]]

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Michael Asher: [[inaudible]]
Jan Butterfield: huh?
Michael Asher: [[inaudible]]
Jan Butterfield: huh? no, no, no, no what were you doing prior to [[inaudible]]

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Michael Asher: um. What was I doing? Ah, prior to those years? Oh I don't know, you know just trying different little different things here and there
Jan Butterfield: But that's was kind of, I mean that's where, that's where it began right there

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Michael Asher: ya, no that's a...
Jan Butterfield: That's an interesting place to begin?
Michael Asher: ya I mean that's a rip, that's a rip

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[[silence]]

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Jan Butterfield: [while yawning] let me ask you a question

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Michael Asher: Oh, let me just say it's redefined

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Jan Butterfield: Any contextual material

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Michael Asher: Yeah, it certainly redefines

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Jan Butterfield: When you said [[inaudible]]

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Michael Asher: Redefines and mystifies [laughs]

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Michael Asher: uh and our production

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Jan Butterfield: See- I have two completely different lines of it. If you haven't been raised in a museum context, museum education context, I 100% understand the museums attitude and relation to text [[inaudible]].

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And the other point of view that I afford, I don't want any of it if it stands for [[inaudible]].

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I don't, I can't define [[inaudible]] Someone come in with the view [[inaudible]]. And I don't [[inaudible]].

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But that's a different issue then whether or not it needs to be [[silence]] actual material that's used for human words is not necessarily participation [[inaudible]].

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It can mean [[inaudible]]. I don't think that information about

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Jan Butterfield: But you noticed, what about [[inaudible]] necessary participation?
Michael Asher: I would, I would say, I'm totally not degradable.

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Ah, because what I said, because what I said about [[inaudible]] Because, um, different then anything I did and I would just clarify,

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Jan Butterfield: Oh what. I mean you
Michael Asher: My [[inaudible]] clarify, clarify the words and
Jan Butterfield: And there's no razzle dazzle. If anything there is too little razzle dazzle.

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[[inaudible]]
Michael Asher: Maybe.
Jan Butterfield: [[inaudible]]
Michael Asher: Maybe, I don't, I'm not sure. But

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Jan Butterfield: I know it [[inaudible]] [[silence]]
Michael Asher: But, I'm saying that, I'm saying that, you know, I guess I feel it is how it is done, the way in which it's done. And, um, that's why you know [[noise on tape]]

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Jan Butterfield: But the ditextual materials is
Michael Asher: Is used.
Jan Butterfield: [[inaudible]]
Michael Asher: Yeah and part of it is through the edification of the artwork. Um, [[inaudible]].

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Jan Butterfield: Well there's a difference between a piece of work that can't stand on its own so then it needs to be dependent, there are people who do that with their work, especially people who teach art which is one of the interesting things because it use to...
Michael Asher: Like myself [[laughs]]

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Jan Butterfield: But that no, no, I see that a lot in artists who teach. And over, you need to over explain, because it's part of a different process. It's a different... The artist who chose to teach have a slightly different capacity, I think, then people who chose not to teach.

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Just simply to say, some people, there's only a [[street art?]] that's completely private studio [[?]]. And there's no desire to verbalize their work whatsoever. And some people who chose to teach

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Jan Butterfield: Do you find it less problematical [[??]] or enjoy doing it or whatever and their really two different animals, you know? And there are a lot of people who justify poor work or ineffectual work or, or tease work, whatever you want to say, with textual material and that doesn't count.

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Michael Asher: Yeah, but I think that
Jan Butterfield: They make up for bad work by saying "Here's what I meant to do."
Michael Asher: OK, the other way around
Jan Butterfield: Or tell you how you are suppose to feel about it.

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Michael Asher: The other way around is to take a figure like Tom Francis and say well, OK, I'm in the studio all the time, but what good has that done for the artist.
Jan Butterfield: Well. Yeah.
Michael Asher: It is
Jan Butterfield: The point is, the work should be able to stand on it's own. There should be not

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Michael Asher: Very much so
Jan Butterfield: There should be relief.
Michael Asher: [[laughs]]
Jan Butterfield: Touche.
Michael Asher: [[laughs]]

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Jan Butterfield: One of the problems I had dealing with Sand, was that, he said, "If you are going to write a catalog for me, you are not going to discuss, me, my history". You know, no. If you are going to write a catalog for me my history or the work.

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Michael Asher: So, what good is that?
Jan Butterfield: And those are the restrictions under that...
Michael Asher: You have to discuss the work.
Jan Butterfield: which we had to agree to take it on
Michael Asher: It's got to be
Jan Butterfield: I said, "But that's what you do in a catalog". And he said, "But, that's what you are not going to do in my catalog".
Michael Asher: Exactly, he wants mystification, he wants mystification, right?

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Jan Butterfield: No, he doesn't want mystification.
Michael Asher: But, you'd have to discuss the works, unless you'd want to mystify, right?
Jan Butterfield: Right, unless it's exposed.
Michael Asher: Absolutely.
Jan Butterfield: Well, but I see.
Michael Asher: You don't have to discuss him. He's out of the picture. That's fine. That's fine, put him on the side. Because that's the way I feel it should, but he has to do, I agree with him very strongly. But, my God, if you can't discuss the work then you're out the window or out the door. I mean forget it, your production is totally mystified.

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Jan Butterfield: Ah, well. It can be. I mean I would like to think that I didn't mystify it. OK? I would like to think that what I did was to put something in context.
Michael Asher: Did I? I didn't realize that you did something for him.
Jan Butterfield: Yeah, I did. I did a catalog for the Boston... No, no, no. It's interesting.

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Michael Asher: Oh, that's funny.
Jan Butterfield: It really was a challenge. Because I did a catalog for the Boston Museum and one for the County. OK?
Michael Asher: [[laughs]]

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Jan Butterfield: Right, one of my... together...
Michael Asher: I, I was the ugliest...
Jan Butterfield: No, but it is a perfect example. Because, of he was interesting for me.

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Because, I had been working with [[non-artists?]] for so long. That I had to run... I had to start dealing with another kind of attitude. Which actually turned out to be a similar kind of attitude. [[inaudible]]
Michael Asher: Sure

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Jan Butterfield: ...similar material. But, I would like to see if it wasn't demystifying.
Michael Asher: But, what I'm saying is that, well going back to your original statement, I'm saying that heres a person that's not tolerant. Ah, and he stayed in his studio, and he stayed in his studio and it seems to be by [[?]].

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Jan Butterfield: Well, but he said something about [[?]]
Michael Asher: [[?]]

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Jan Butterfield: Well, then you have to ask yourself, whether or not, whether, um, mystification is a [[language?]].
Michael Asher: Well,

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Jan Butterfield: Then you have to decide how well you know... I mean, I could talk 3 hours about Corbet Still, OK? You have to decide how calculated that mystification was on his part. Or how...

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And, I mean you could hardly call him a naive. So that's...
Michael Asher: No, no, no, no, no. OK
Jan Butterfield: But Corbet still did it deliberately,

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:11.000
Michael Asher: OK, so did that Reinhardt. [[talking over each other]]
Jan Butterfield: He was not at all naive.
Michael Asher: So did Reinhardt?
Jan Butterfield: No.
Michael Asher: He got busted?

00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:34.000
Jan Butterfield: All that pettiness.
Michael Asher: As a matter of fact, [[Huma?]] did too.
Jan Butterfield: But, ah, that's OK too. I mean, that's part of the act. You can't separate that. Because there is no way to separate that. There's no way to separate that attitude of Stills. That rigidity is also there in the painting. And I don't think calling it mystification is, is real correct. See what I mean?

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:41.010
Michael Asher: Yeah, well, I would call it mystification when it's done unintentional.
Jan Butterfield: When it's done unintentional?
Michael Asher: Yeah.

00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:46.000
Jan Butterfield: Oh well, and what do you call, what do you call, uh

00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:57.000
Michael Asher: See, the thing is, I was agreeing with you in part about the difference though because mystification is like the erroneous fitness that he puts out about himself or wants something like that, right.

00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:04.000
[[Cross Talk]]
Michael Asher: Or a questionable, a questionable --
Jan Butterfield: And you say that, it doesn't, any man tamper with my work, I'll give him the share of my back, any man tamper with my work, and his blood will be on

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:08.000
Michael Asher: Right.
Jan Butterfield: my blood will be on his hands.
Michael Asher: Right, right, right.

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:29.000
Michael Asher: But, in a way, in a way you can read that, but me, I can read that, I can say, well that's, you know, that I know is incorrect. Yeah, and he's done that intentionally to tell us, tell me something else. And that's, it becomes almost a narrative or a metaphorical language of which he's speaking in. And I can say the same--
Jan Butterfield: Yes, I agree.

00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:49.000
Michael Asher: the same, the same with [[human]], and I think the same, ah, well, I don't know. You know, but I have a feeling that um, [[San France?]] is a different animal. That's all I'm saying.
Jan Butterfield: Oh, for sure.

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:56.000
Michael Asher: And that he's not doing intentionally. The point is--
Jan Butterfield: Oh no, absolutely not. He's far from it, far from it.
Michael Asher: His point is to get into studio--

00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:01.000
Jan Butterfield: And do it.
Michael Asher: And do his work, get his paintings out, and that's it.

00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:11.000
[[Cross Talk]]
Jan Butterfield: And that emphasis couldn't be more correct.
Michael Asher: And he has no, and he has no, and he has no critical or analytical question about the work.

00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:16.000
Jan Butterfield: And no need for verification of his, whatsoever.
Michael Asher: Right. Exactly.
Jan Butterfield: No need for verification or confirmation

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:33.000
[[Interference]]
Jan Butterfield: Oh, no, I was thinking that last night when we were talking about that whole thing being that window of faith, just you can't say when it compounds the power of that place, it becomes aware.

00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:42.000
Michael Asher: But this is [[urbantal?]] space. This one.
Jan Butterfield: Where was the {[monetry?]] program?
Michael Asher: That, thats...
Jan Butterfield: But, this is documented.

00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:50.000
Michael Asher: This is...
Jan Butterfield: Like the other one. Yeah...
Michael Asher: Yeah.
Jan Butterfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Asher: This, this is like, just a hallway which they could never do anything with.

00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:02.690
You'd never believe it but this is looking like 12 or 13 feet wide. See this is just a corridor. It's just a hallway.
Jan Butterfield: Well, it's amazing
Michael Asher: And I made it, and I put it, I capped it both ends.

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:12.000
Jan Butterfield: Oh that's amazing!
Michael Asher: Yeah. People don't do that.
Jan Butterfield: No it even looks boundless. Oh that's interesting.

00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:26.000
Michael Asher: Yeah
Jan Butterfield: You see, I've never really been to [[?]] so I don't know the space.
Michael Asher: Well I mean that not even knowing the space the dimensions are, are different in the text, but you'll see that

00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:33.000
Jan Butterfield: In centimeters I noticed.
Michael Asher: Well
Jan Butterfield: I never [[inaudible]]
Michael Asher: Oh, it's true. It certainly is...

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:47.000
Jan Butterfield: Um, One thing we should talk about seriously is... The thing we talked about a little before but then we just sort of skirted around and we never really did get into it. But.

00:26:47.000 --> 00:27:06.000
I'm very interested in knowing from your own sense what when you talk about things and problems with [[groupness?]] and things..
Michael Asher: Do you want to know... Do you want to see more go to [[inaudible]]. I mean, I mean those are the same photos you already saw

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:14.000
Jan Butterfield: Yeah, those are the ones I saw
Michael Asher: I don't know if you want to use these or not but that... these..

00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:20.000
Jan Butterfield: But he has great, he has very good sets of those, so I feel good about that. And I think I asked him to print up 3.

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:27.000
Michael Asher: He only has early photos, remember that.
Jan Butterfield: Yeah
Michael Asher: Up to '73, maybe. Or '72.

00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:41.000
Jan Butterfield: Now, alright. So that the sort of thing I'll have to ask him
Michael Asher: So that's something you might have to, you might want to,
Jan Butterfield: [[inaudible]] [[grinding noise in background]]
Michael Asher: [[inaudible]]

00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:48.000
Jan Butterfield: Because he didn't have [[?]] color pictures, he said to get them from you. He was in Chicago

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:58.000
Michael Asher: You can. Yeah, you can get... I mean like I say. Chicago. You got, um,

00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:04.000
Jan Butterfield: Do you have [[?]] color ones here, that you can give me?
Michael Asher: Oh, right now?

00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:17.000
Jan Butterfield: Yeah.
Michael Asher: No.
Jan Butterfield: See, he doesn't have those
Michael Asher: Well, no. I mean, I wouldn't expect him to. That was like the point. The point is that he, he gets quite a bit of um...

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:35.080
[[tape restarts with grinding noise in background]]
Michael Asher: Yeah, it's exactly like I'd jump through it [[laughs]]
Jan Butterfield: [[inaudible]]
Michael Asher: No. I shouldn't be factious.

00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:46.000
Jan Butterfield: What building am I seeing right there?
Michael Asher: Your seeing, ah, the Clock Tower Building, there, there [[?]] building, it's only there

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:58.000
Jan Butterfield: But out the window.
Michael Asher: Oh, that's, that's the Empire State Building.
Jan Butterfield: Now, is that PS1 or the Clock Tower? I've never been to the Clock Tower.
Michael Asher: Well
Jan Butterfield: How narrow is it?

00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:05.000
Michael Asher: Eric Gordon did something that where you just see that
Jan Butterfield: Quite. That's why I am asking.
Michael Asher: Yes.
Jan Butterfield: Quite

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:18.000
Michael Asher: Don't worry, don't worry. You'll see it all coming out.
Jan Butterfield: What ah...
Michael Asher: I mean, I mean you said you didn't want to listen to any of it. But, um. Do you want to turn that off for a minute? [[tape clicks off]]

00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:24.000
Jan Butterfield: Little bit about that sense of...
Michael Asher: These aren't good photos
Jan Butterfield: Well, that's alright. Just for information they are fine.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:42.000
Um, of that sent, your sense of behaving into space because it seems to come all the way through the work, all right...
Michael Asher: Yes.
Jan Butterfield: There's a economy that runs all the way through the work which obviously is the thing that is important relation to it. And we should talk a little bit about the PS1 in kind of relation to that.

00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:51.000
Michael Asher: All right.
Jan Butterfield: Because I think you feel very strongly about it and obviously the statements that are being made there are going to be highly interesting. I mean in your words.

00:29:51.000 --> 00:30:19.000
Michael Asher: I don't, I don't know if it's, if it's all that new. But I just think its, um, I don't know. I mean, I, I don't even feel self righteous to the way, the way I'm using... Oh, I mean I feel somewhat more on this [[?]] to when, ah, I'm using it or a gallery or a building is tromped up,

00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:48.648
I think that sure it does lose it's integrity. Um, it's original intended architectural integrity from experience and certainly and many, and many respects from the interior. And, um, so, I don't know. I, it's integrity is broken by an artist for a different intent is often