Moses Moon Civil Rights Recordings 1963-1964: Washington, DC; after November 22, 1963(OT_N18)


Web Video Text Tracks Format (WebVTT)


WEBVTT

00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:27.000
Norman Thomas: Well I've pressed that's a very good question, it's divided in two parts.

00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:33.000
First, is it only a presumption that we're on the way or pretty far along a Garrison State.

00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:34.000
No, it's a good deal more than a presumption.

00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:45.000
I am going to quote a general, named Dwight Eisenhower, who was President of the United States, who warned against the military industrial complex, which has such power.

00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:51.000
A Garrison State is a state in which the final decision is largely determined by military considerations.

00:00:51.000 --> 00:01:02.000
In our times, you don't have to live like Spartans to be under a Garrison State, but this leads me to a partial answer to your first question.

00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:07.000
I said, and it would take me charts and the rest of it to prove it.

00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:15.000
I said that the proper basis for prosperity isn't a expenditure on things, that nobody uses.

00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:28.000
Piling up things we don't use, weapons enough to destroy the world, is not through a economic process. It's a political progress, necessitating some people think for defense.

00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:38.000
Maybe it is, but I am saying this is an additional reason to work for disarmament under international control and other things necessary for peace.

00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:44.000
I am saying that if you have to have it for defense, you've got to exempt pretty much of a Garrison State.

00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:55.000
Now, I will agree, I think, that in a Garrison State there can be civil rights, that is to say, everybody be treated as long as their jobs

00:01:55.000 --> 00:02:06.000
but civil rights in principle and in theory, certainly are a part of civil liberties and there can't be civil liberties because of the discriminations of the Garrison State are [[acted?]] along the lines of what you think

00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:12.000
and I don't think that I want to conquer unemployment by a draft.

00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:16.000
Spending so many anointed men into the army, every year .

00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:18.000
This isn't the way I want it done.

00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:24.000
Now, maybe I'm being unfair you're preoccupied with a tremendous struggle,

00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:26.605
but it is a struggle, that can't be separated from other struggles and I, I just want to remind of this

00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:35.000
We've got a Garrison State, partly because, the way you get re-elected to Congress,

00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:39.000
in the House, is very largely: 'How much bacon did you bring to the district?'

00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:43.000
that means military contacts, not schools.

00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.000
Not hospitals.

00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:48.000
Military contacts. Not education. Military.

00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:49.000
That's what I mean.

00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:58.000
I mean that when Eisenhower, I think [[??]] said five million workers are polling directly independent.

00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:01.000
A lot of corporations make their profits out of, they might make them otherwise.

00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:06.000
A third of all our engineers and scientists are devoted to it.

00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:11.000
Um, half of all our research money is not unoften pulled out of unemployment,

00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:15.000
but how can you, how can you get more deadly weapons(--)scientifically.

00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:18.000
This is a characteristic of a Garrison State

00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:24.000
and it is not in that atmosphere that you will get the fair and full employment,

00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:28.000
which you and every other decent American wants to have.

00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:34.000
That's as good as I can do in a short time. [[clapping]]

00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:41.000
[[background voice]] We would like [[??]] one more point tonight gentlemen and I'm sorry, I cannot I [[inaudible]]

00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:49.000
It has been the, uhm, Department of Defense (--)

00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:54.000
in many instances with [[??]] of, uhm,

00:03:54.000 --> 00:04:00.000
government contracts, in the Southern states, with corporations that located their facilities in Southern states

00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:04.000
they have been the forerunner in,

00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:08.000
acquiring and maintaining and acquiring that these corporations

00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:12.000
exercise the system of fair and employment for all

00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:19.000
and that these persons be heard, regardless of their race, [[breed?]] Or color.

00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:20.000
Do you not agree that it has been

00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:28.000
the Department of Defense has been a forerunner in, granting, full and impartial employment?

00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:29.029
Norman Thomas: No.

00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.000
[[applause]]

00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:38.000
Norman Thomas: Wait a minute! They need the, the Depart ( -- ) [[Cross Talk]]

00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:40.000
Wait just a moment. Wait just a moment.

00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:45.000
Now wait a moment, this is our program and we're gonna run how we wanna run it.

00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:53.000
Norman Thomas: I think I heard your question, I'd like to answer, but if you don't want to hear the answer, well, that's alright.

00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:56.000
Norman Thomas: The Defense Department has done better than a good many other departments,

00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:59.000
but to call it the forerunner, a pioneer ( -- )

00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.000
My goodness.

00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:06.000
Norman Thomas: They have done it partly because of the row you folks stirred up. Because ( -- )

00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:12.000
[[applause]]

00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:16.000
Norman Thomas: Because, there's one thing defense people do have sense enough to realize,

00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:19.000
and that is that you have to have a pretty homogeneous people behind you.

00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:22.000
But I'll tell you a little history,

00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:25.000
[[??]]still here? I think you'll bear me out, if he's around,

00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:29.000
but, anyway, it's true, even without his endorsement.

00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:36.000
The guy that really broke down Jim Crow and the army, more than any other guy, was A. Philip Randolph. You know that, don't you?

00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:39.000
[[applause]]

00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:44.000
And he did it, he did it with the least money I ever knew.

00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:50.000
I lent him office space for some of his young people to work, and we had - he had, I didn't

00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:56.000
an organization for something or other, but abolished Jim Crow and the army, got denounced in Congress, and all the rest.

00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:03.000
But he made awful progress. And I think there are two fellas, Bill Worthy and Bill Sutherland, that devoted the work,

00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:06.000
they used to come in and collect [[the mail?]].

00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:13.000
But nevertheless, he who is remembered for what he'd said about the march on Washington

00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:19.000
he more than any man in the United States is responsible for the fact that in the army, and also in the employment connected with the army,

00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:25.000
there was a pretty, a fairer break for Negroes than anywhere else.

00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:31.000
Norman Thomas: But, I am a little astonished to find an organization like yours that's working for so many high ideal things,

00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:36.000
who say that the only way you can manage to get fair employment for Negroes

00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:42.000
is to continue an arms race that is more likely an if indefinitely continued,

00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:44.000
to lead to war, than to peace.

00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.000
[[laughter]]

00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.000
[[man in audience]] We don't say that!

00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.000
James Forman: What I was about to say is, this is an open meeting

00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:57.000
Norman Thomas: Well I,
James Forman: Wait just a moment. Everybody in here is not necessarily a member of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:01.000
Now, we're not gonna have a screening test to find out who is and who is not, [[clapping]]

00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:05.000
but all these ideas don't represent us. [[clapping]]

00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:09.915
Norman Thomas: I, I realize that, and I just took a rhetorical privilege 'you', I meant him.

00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:16.000
Norman Thomas: and I know your general position and I'm glad you've made it plain.

00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.000
I like open meetings.

00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:22.000
One of my troubles is that I talk too often to the already almost converted, [[laughter]]

00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:26.000
and that's not so good.

00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:27.000
So, I welcome the gentlemen.

00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:28.000
[[background voice 1]] Another question.

00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.000
[[background voice 2]] No, I was going to say I think the young man should also bear in mind,

00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:35.000
that even in the area, the Georgia area,

00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:39.000
the division of jobs and securing of jobs for Negros didn't come automatically,

00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:45.000
[[Cross Talk]] [[background voice 2]] well I think that it implies that the Defense Department

00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:51.000
had been great forerunner and [[carried?]] unequal employment,

00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.000
that led up [[??]].

00:07:54.000 --> 00:08:00.000
This is the truth. [[Speaker 1]] No, I was misquoted. I do not believe this is the only area, I'm saying why exclude this area,

00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:06.000
when this is an area that has been [[??]] everywhere.

00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:08.000
Norman Thomas: well there not real [[??]] of facts, let's go on.

00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.000
[[background voice 1]] I have given you ample time, so can we get another question over there.

00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:12.000
Question.

00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:15.000
[[background voice 3]] I'd like to ask Mr. Thomas what suggestions he might have made

00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:21.000
regarding the old [[??]] civil rights organisations,

00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:22.000
I don't want to name names ( -- )

00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:26.000
that, almost insist on converting themselves into enemies,

00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.000
of the Civil Rights Movement as it is today,

00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:35.000
or at least [[??]] the rest of them?

00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:41.000
Norman Thomas: No, I think you're kind of putting me in a spot I don't want to be in.

00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:46.000
Let me say this.

00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.000
If, If you want me to come as a white man, an old man

00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:53.000
not intimately connected with all that's happening

00:08:53.000 --> 00:09:00.000
and, begin to say that some organisations in the Negro appeal are wrong and some are right,

00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:05.000
I'm not gonna do it. I think it would be a presumptuous thing for me to do,

00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:08.000
and I have lived long enough to find that you need cooperation of organisations

00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:11.000
in peace for instance,

00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:12.000
that don't agree all together,

00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:15.000
some of which I like much better than others.

00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:18.606
But, there are all kinds of people in the world and and there all kinds of ways

00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:30.000
Norman Thomas: One of the things that I admire more than I could tell you about the march on Washington, was the extraordinary expression it seemed to give,

00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:35.000
of a united demand of the negro people supported by many of their white friends.

00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:40.000
It lifted me up on a plain that I don't think I was ever on,

00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:43.000
but I can't say that I've always stayed on it.

00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:49.000
But this was the work of a cooperative group which makes me believe that you can workout cooperation.

00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:54.000
Meanwhile, which methods I prefer,

00:09:54.000 --> 00:10:01.000
are not properly the subject of this discussion and this program where I was invited to talk about, particularly about one thing.

00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:07.000
[[background voice 1]] Let's have a couple more questions.

00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:12.000
[[background voice 1]] We have about three minutes. Three or four minutes.

00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:14.000
That's now it. Mr. Thomas we thank you for coming.

00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:17.000
Norman Thomas: Well I thank you for the chance [[clapping]]

00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:23.000
Norman Thomas: I would like to say, [[clapping]]

00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:28.000
Norman Thomas: I want to pronounce [[inaudible]] [[clapping]]

00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:33.000
Norman Thomas: This is a chapel and I want to pronounce a kind of benediction at least I want us to have a definite last word.

00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:38.000
I'm enthusiastic for questions. I like to be questioned by people who don't agree with me.

00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:42.000
It educates me and I hope it educates them.

00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:47.000
But, but, I want you to know that I came for one purpose,

00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:50.000
to express my admiration towards SNCC, my hope is for its future

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.000
and my thoughts on what I was asked particularly to talk about

00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:00.000
which is the fundamental question of employment, which underlies even housing and the rest. Thank you very much.

00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:04.000
We appreciate that and feel that any other questions are not necessarily relevant

00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:08.000
and as I expressed to you, this is sort of, this is an open meeting

00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.000
and people are coming in and raising various questions.

00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:23.952
Thank you very much. Alright, 3:30. [[clapping]]

00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:57.000
Singer: We shall not be moved, we shall not

00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:06.000
oh just like a tree that's planted by the water,

00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:14.000
woah we shall not be moved.

00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:22.000
oh we're on our way to victory, we shall not be moved.

00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:28.000
we're on our way to victory,

00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:37.000
Oh just like a tree, that's planted by the water

00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:44.000
oh We shall not be moved

00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:52.000
Oh segregation is our enemy, it must be removed

00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:59.000
Segregation is our enemy,

00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:07.000
Oh just like a [[?]] in the [[?]]

00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:15.000
It must be removed

00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:23.000
oh we shall not, we shall not be moved

00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:29.000
We shall not

00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:38.000
Oh just like a tree that's planted by the water,

00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:48.412
Oh, we shall not be moved

00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.000
[[background talking from audience and speakers talking amongst themselves]]
unknown speaker 1: Is [[?]] out there, [[?]], Chuck [[?]]?

00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:14.000
unknown speaker 2: They're downstairs.

00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:20.000
unknown speaker 1: Alright, we want some more strong singers, Samuel Bluff, where are you? Sam Bluff?

00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:33.000
Somebody go get the Smith Fella's downstairs? Willie Peacock? Peacock?

00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:35.000
[[inaudible]] Go ahead, Jill. [[Song begins]]

00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:50.000
Singers: Ain't gonna let nobody turn me round, turn me round, lord, turn me round Ain't gonna let nobody turn me round,

00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:58.000
Gonna keep on walking, yeah, keep on talking, yeah, marching on to freedom land!

00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:13.000
Ain't gonna let...
unknown speaker 1: [[Crosstalk]] segregation...
Singers: Lord turn me round, oh no, oh no (Audience: Turn me round, turn me round) Ain't gonna let segregation, turn me round,

00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:20.000
Keep on a-walkin', yeah, keep on a-talkin', yeah marching on to freedom land!

00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:27.000
Ain't gonna let the administration turn me around round

00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:31.000
oh no, oh no (Audience: turn me round)

00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:42.000
Ain't gonna let the administration turn me around round, I'm gonna keep on a-walkin', yeah, keep on a-talkin', yeah marching on to freedom land!

00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:50.000
unknown speaker 1: Ain't gonna let nobody lordy,
Singers: turn me round, oh no, oh no (Audience: Turn me round, turn me round)

00:15:50.000 --> 00:16:03.000
Singers: Ain't gonna let nobody turn me round, Gonna keep on a-walkin', yeah, keep on a-talkin', yeah marching on to freedom land!

00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:25.000
unknown speaker 1: Ain't gonna let no citizen's council, lordy
Singers: turn me round, turn me round, turn me round, Ain't gonna let no Citizen's Council lordy turn me round, Gonna keep on a-walkin', yeah, keep on a-talkin', yeah marching on to freedom land!

00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:34.000
I'm on my way to freedom land,

00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:40.000
I'm on my way to freedom land!

00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:55.000
I'm on my way to freedom land, I'm on my way, thank God, I'm on my way,

00:16:55.000 --> 00:17:02.000
If you don't go, don't depend on me,

00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:09.000
If you don't go, don't depend on me,

00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:23.000
If you don't go, don't depend on me, I'm on my way, thank God, I'm on my way [[clapping louder]]

00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:28.000
If you don't go, let your children go,

00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:34.000
If you don't go, let your children go,

00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:41.000
If you don't go, let your children go,

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:47.000
I'm on my way, thank God, I'm on my way,

00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:53.000
I'm on my way, and I won't turn back,

00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:59.000
I'm on my way, and I won't turn back

00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:11.000
I'm on my way, and I won't turn back, I'm on way, thank God I'm on my way

00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:23.000
I'm on my way to freedom land, I'm on my way to freedom land

00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:36.950
I'm on my way to freedom land, I'm on my way, thank God, I'm on my way

00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:50.000
we are soldiers in the army

00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:55.000
we gotta fight oh lord we have to fight

00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:06.000
we got to hold all of the freedom [[banner?]], we gotta hold it all until we die

00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:11.000
we are soldiers in the army

00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:16.000
we gotta fight, oh

00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:28.000
yeah we gotta hold all of the freedom [[banner?]] we gotta hold it all until we die

00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:32.000
My mother was a soldier

00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:38.000
She gotta her hands on the [[?]] blood

00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:48.000
one day she got old she couldn't fight anymore she said i'll stand here [[?]]

00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:54.000
yeah we are soldiers in the army

00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:59.000
we gotta fight

00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:10.000
yeah we gotta hold all of the freedom [[?]] we gotta hold it all until we die

00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:15.000
and then I'm a soldier

00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:20.000
I got my hands on the freedom flag

00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:30.000
one day I'll get old I'm not gonna fight anymore, I'll just thank Him [[?]]

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:36.000
Yeah, we are soldiers in the army

00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.000
we gotta fight, oh

00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:51.000
yeah we gotta hold all of the freedom [[banner?]] we gotta hold it all until we die

00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:56.000
we are soldiers in the army

00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:01.000
we gotta fight, oh

00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:14.000
we gotta hold all of the freedom [[banner?]] we gotta hold it all until we die

00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:23.720
[[applause]]

00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:47.000
Various audience members: [[yelling]] Freedom train [00:21:41
Samuel Block: There are only three words you have to remember-

00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:33.000
unidentified speaker:

00:21:33.000 --> 00:22:03.000
All the people in the back come up, there are some seats up here, this is Sam Block from Greenwood Mississippi. [[?]] Block. [[applause]]

00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:20.000
Samuel Block: Uh there are only 3 words you have to remember and its "freedom", "coming" and [[?]] and the other 5 are "get onboard children, get onboard". Well 3 and 5 [[?]] don't you worry about [[?]]

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:30.000
So, everybody, all you have to do is freedom, freedom, freedom, well you'll catch on

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:32.000
Can you hear me in the back?

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:34.000
Audience: No!

00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:38.000
Well, you'll hear me now

00:22:38.000 --> 00:23:02.000
Till that Freedom train, a-coming coming coming, Till that Freedom train, Lord a-coming coming coming,

00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:24.000
Till that Freedom train, Lord a-coming Let's get on board, get on board

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:31.350
Ok, we're all here together and we're saying that the freedom train is coming, now the reason why we said that -

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.000
[[audience conversations overlap]]

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:39.000
Samuel Block: [[and there is because we believe?]] this we know that we're gonna make the freedom train

00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.000
[[audience cheers]]

00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:46.000
[[and there is?]] because we've said this, we're gonna need someone to engineer that's gonna be driving the engine of this train.

00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:49.000
We're here to tell the world that the freedom train is coming

00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:54.000
Although there may be be some doubt in somebody's mind about the freedom train

00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:02.000
They said now the freedom train is coming say, uh, I wanna know a little bit more about the train, say what kind of train is this?

00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:09.000
You said it is a freedom train I wanna know what is the train carrying. Well see, the train is carrying nothing but freedom,

00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:16.000
so you don't have to worry about what the freedom train is carrying. Well a lot of people worry say "well will there be any Governor Wallace on this train?"

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:22.000
"Will there be any Governor Barnetts on this train?" Well no, there will be no segregation on this train!

00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:26.000
This train is known as the freedom train, the freedom train is coming, and it's carrying nothing but freedom!

00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:33.000
So we gonna tell Washington that the freedom train is coming, and it's carrying nothing but freedom! Now we want you to tell [[em? them?]] that!

00:24:33.000 --> 00:25:07.000
It'll be carrying nothing but freedom, freedom, freedom.

00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:16.000
Let's get onboard, get onboard.

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:23.000
Well you know a lot of people worry, they say "now if the freedom train is coming and you say it's carrying nothing but freedom,

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:26.000
say, I wanna know a just little bit more about the train.

00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:32.000
Say, I know I haven't done what I should have done a long time ago for the cause of freedom

00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:37.000
but let me tell you. I don't wanna be left when everybody else going on this train.

00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:40.000
I wanna know if there's gonna be any room for my little son.

00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.000
Is there gonna be any room for my little daughter that wanna go on this freedom train?

00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.000
Will there be any room for my husband?

00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:50.000
See, I know he worked on the plantation real hard all his life.

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.000
I know that he hasn't gone up to register vote as he should've done.

00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:59.000
But lemme tell you. Say I wanna go on the train I wanna carry my whole family.

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.000
Say, I know that, you know, since all the freedom fighters have come together

00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.000
and they're fighting for the cause of freedom, say I don't think

00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.000
there would be any room for me on this train. But this is the reason

00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.000
why I'm coming to ask you, will there be any room for us on this train?"

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:18.000
Well, yeah, you don't have to worry. We know that you haven't done what you should have done.

00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:23.000
You don't have to worry. You don't have to worry about the train that's coming by the thousand.

00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:27.000
So don't you worry about a thing. If you haven't done anything just come up.

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:30.000
Cause the train is coming by the thousand.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:02.000
It'll be coming by the thousand, thousand, thousand.

00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:10.000
Let's get onboard, oh, get on board.

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:12.220
You know. down in Mississippi, you know

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:17.000
[[singing in background; Freedom train]]
Samuel Block: -that the freedom train is coming.

00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:26.000
You know the plantation owners in Mississippi are so bad and so mean until they just don't want Negros in Mississippi to become registered voters.

00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:31.000
And this is why we've been fighting so hard to try to gain the right to vote.

00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:45.000
Now they tell their workers on the plantation, now if you go out there and mess with those [[?]] outside agitators for carrying on, said we going to carry you, and get Big Smitty - well Stupid Smitty is what we call him, he's the sheriff you know,

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:53.000
he arrested a federal official when he showed him his credentials in Mississippi, this is the sheriff this is why we call him Stupid Smitty.

00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:09.000
So, you know, listen now we're gonna take that little 12 dollars a week from you that you make on the plantation, so now you won't have no food, and you're kids are not gonna have no food either, and we're gonna make Stupid Smitty carry you up there and throw you in jail and lock you up, and I'm not gonna get you out.

00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:23.000
But we told them that since we been duped and been stolen and been talked about for so long now, and been using jail to scare Negros you know we ain't scared of your jails no more, because we want our freedom, now you can do what you want,

00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:33.000
you know, but we ain't scared of your jails, because we want our freedom. So in Mississippi we sang this song to 'em, you know. We ain't scared of your jails because we want our freedom. So let's try.

00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:45.000
[[Song begins]] I ain't scared of your jails, 'cause I want my, I want my, I want my I ain't scared of your jails, 'cause I want my, Lord I want my freedom now

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:59.000
I ain't scared of penitentiary, 'cause I want my, oh I ain't scared of penitentiary, 'cause I want my, Lord I want me freedom now

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:12.000
I'm gonna be arrested Lordy, 'cause I want my, Lord I want my, Lord I want my I'm gonna be arrested Lordy, 'cause I want my, I want my freedom now

00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:25.000
I'll never turn back, 'cause I want my, Lord I want my, oh I'll never turn back, because I want my, Lord I want my freedom now

00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:38.000
I'll be telling everybody that I want my, that I want my, oh I'll be telling everybody that I want my, that I want my freedom now

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:52.000
Gonna keep on fighting 'till I get my, Lord I get my, oh Gonna keep on fighting 'till I get my, Lord I get my freedom now

00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:05.000
I ain't scared of your dogs 'cause I want my, Lord I want my, Lord I want my I ain't scared of your dogs 'cause I want my, Lord I want my freedom now

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:18.000
I ain't scared of your sticks 'cause I want my, Lord I want my, Lord I want my I ain't scared of your sticks 'cause I want my, Lord I want my freedom now

00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:32.000
You can throw me in jail but I want my, Lord I want my, oh You can throw me in jail but I want my, Lord I want my freedom now

00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:46.000
I'm gonna tell my friends that I want my, that I want my, oh I'm gonna tell my friends that I want my, that I want my freedom now

00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:58.000
You can talk about me, but I want my, Lord I want my, Lord you can talk about me, but I want my, Lord I want my freedom now

00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:12.000
I don't mind dying 'cause I want my, Lord I want my, Lord I want my I don't mind dying 'cause I want my, I want freedom now

00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:30.000
Oh I'd tell my friends that I want my, Lord I want my, Lord I want my I'd tell my friends that I want my, Lord I want my freedom now

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:46.000
I ain't scared of your jails, 'cause I want my, Lord I want my, Lord I ain't scared of your jails, 'cause I want my, Lord I want my freedom now

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:51.000
[[Song ends]] [[Applause]]

00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:56.130
Well since we've said we that we aint scared of your jails we want our-

00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:17.000
[[SPEAKER name="Speaker 1"]] Use something to get it. And the best way that we know to tell them is to "come on and wade in the water with us."

00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:26.000
It doesn't mean that you have to get out and go, y'know, get in a ditch of water, y'know, and wade up and down there and get wet, saying that you hold freedom.

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:37.000
But it means you have to get in the struggle, in the battle, and fight with us. And this is the water that we're wading in, down in the South, in the hardcore areas of Mississippi.

00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:48.000
So, the song goes something like this.
[SILENCE]

00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:52.000
Wade in the water,

00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:57.000
wade in the water children,

00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:01.000
wade in the water, my lordy,

00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:06.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:11.000
Come on and wade in the water, my lordy

00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:15.000
wade in the water, children,

00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:21.000
wade in the water, my lordy,

00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:26.000
You can talk about Peter,

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.000
talk about Paul,

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:32.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:38.000
Well, it ain't but the one God that made us all.

00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:45.000
My lordy, wade in the water,

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:50.000
my lordy, wade in the water, children,

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.000
wade in the water, my lordy,

00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:59.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:03.000
Well, the gin river, chill and cold,

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:11.000
Well, it chills the body, but not the soul.

00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:16.000
God's gonna trouble the water, my lordy.

00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:20.000
Wade in the water,

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.000
come on and wade in the water, children,

00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:29.000
wade in the water, my lordy,

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:33.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:38.000
Well if you don't believe that I've been to Hell,

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:41.000
God's gonna trouble the water,

00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:46.000
Just follow me down to the county jail.

00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:54.000
Why don't you wade in the water,

00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:59.000
Why don't you wade in the water, children,

00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:02.000
Wade in the water, my lordy,

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:06.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:11.000
You can hinder me here, you can hinder me there,

00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:15.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:20.000
But you can't hinder me on my knees in prayer.

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.000
Why don't you wade in the water,

00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:33.000
Why don't you wade in the water, children,

00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:36.000
Wade in the water, my lordy,

00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:40.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:45.000
Well, the enemy is great, but my captain's strong,

00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:48.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:53.000
I'm fightin' for freedom, and it won't be long.

00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:58.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.000
Why don't you wade in the water,

00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:06.000
why don't you wade in the water, children,

00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:11.000
wade in the water, my lordy,

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:14.000
God's gonna trouble the water, my lordy.

00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.000
Wade in the water,

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:22.000
why don't you wade in the water, children,

00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.000
wade in the water, my lordy,

00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:31.000
God's gonna trouble the water, my lordy.

00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:35.000
God's gonna trouble the water, my lordy.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:40.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:47.000
God's gonna trouble the water.

00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:50.390
[[applause]]

00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:00.000
[Unknown Speaker 1] Ok,

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:09.000
the next speaker, will be Mr. James Baldwin, who will be introduced to you by our executive

00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:13.000
executive secretary Mr. James Foreman.

00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:21.000
But, previous to this I would like to make a few announcements, which, have been handed to me.

00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:27.000
Number one: those, who, at this time, do not have housing,

00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:32.000
can go downstairs immediately after Mr. Baldwin speaks,

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:35.000
to secure housing.

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.000
And number two:

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:45.000
that, there is, a conference folder, belonging to Joyce Latina, which she has lost

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:53.000
and which contains something valuable in it, and would you please be honest, as we all know you are, and return them.

00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:59.000
Also, I would like, for each and every one of us, to look at the

00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:10.000
sheets, in the, folders, concerning the workshops, and let us see where our workshop is scheduled,

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:14.000
so that after dinner we can go directly to the workshops.

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:26.000
Without, any other comment I would, like to, have, Mr. Foreman introduce Mr. Baldwin.

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:32.000
James Forman: This has fallen in my lap, because primarily, Baldwin was down in Selma, Alabama, when we had a very intensive voting campaign.

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:37.000
Chico [Nettbit?] is here. And I would like for Chico to stand, because he was beaten by the cops and

00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:41.000
Mr. Baldwin was looking on at that particular time.

00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:45.000
Also, [Aibree?] Williams, is he here?

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:48.000
Cause, in the midds of an intensive voting registration campaign,

00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:53.000
in the face of two FBI, four FBI agents, two Justice Department officials,

00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:56.000
these people were beaten by Sheriff County,

00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:00.000
rather, the County of Dallas, Dallas County Sheriff Jim Clark.

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:05.000
Chico? And where's [Aibree?] Williams? Is he here?

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:10.000
I think it's important that we understand some of the difficulties that all the workers are going through.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:10.940
Baldwin was in Selma on-

00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:25.000
James Forman: But I think its important that you understand that he has made a commitment to the negro struggle and that he is willing to go wherever possible whenever he can,

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:38.000
to aid us to observe and to write about the experiences. I think we saw him, we heard him speaking here at Howard about a month ago where he was recalling some of the experiences that he had in Selma, Alabama.

00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:53.000
This is very important, that a man with the type of audience that he has involves himself completely in the struggle because it's not our struggle its his struggle too and when he gets through talking I know we will all feel it's our struggle - James Baldwin.

00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:18.000
[[applause]]

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:23.000
James Baldwin: Thank you very much, can you all hear me in the back?

00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:37.000
Alright, I hardly know what I'm going to talk about but I'll say from the beginning that what I would really like to do

00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:46.000
is explore some of the things which are on my mind, and then we can explore some of the things that are on your mind.

00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:55.000
So that if you'll allow me I won't try to make a speech but I'll try to get a discussion started.

00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:12.000
I really don't like making speeches. And in this case I think that perhaps we can learn a great deal from each other because I am here really, I must say - and I mean this - to learn what I can from you.

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:18.390
I must say that one thing struck me while I was sitting

00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:26.000
James Baldwin: I don't know if I can make this clear.

00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:38.000
But I was born in a church and spent most of my life, being dragged, like a dishrag through various pulpits.

00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:43.000
and singing in frnt of areas, church audiences because my father liked that kind of thing.

00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:52.000
And I left when I was 17 and, uhm, I haven't been back to church since.

00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:56.000
But, as I got older and I began to,

00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:04.000
to deal with my own life in a way which I couldn't ? as a child or as an adolescent.

00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:09.000
I began to try to find out, as everybody does have to at some point, find out,

00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:13.000
who he is, and what he wants and where he really comes from

00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:17.000
and what really nourishes him, what really ? him

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:20.000
how he was put together and now that he is put together this way

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.000
what is he going to do with it

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.000
Then I began to realize that,

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:28.000
in all those years,

00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:34.000
that I spent cursing out the organist and pianist and wishing to God the minister would stop talking.

00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:44.000
All those terrible Sundays, taught me something which I could not have learned in any other way,

00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:48.000
And what it taught me is almost impossible to say,

00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:52.000
but, heard it, just a few minutes ago and you did too.

00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.000
When these people, when these children are singing

00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:00.000
When I say children or I say kids, by the way, I don't mean it patronizingly,at all

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:06.000
I mean, I'm just a little older than you, that's all.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:13.000
Now, it occurs to me that there's something in this which is, of great value, to this entire country.

00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:18.000
For me, it's something of a miracle and I think I can use that word.

00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:23.000
That the songs which we created in privacy, and in anguish and in darkness.

00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:29.000
by black, pagans, captive on these shores.

00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.000
The music they evolved, created.

00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:38.000
Who sustain themselves in the most terrible, terrible oppression that has ever been,

00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:42.000
that have ever happened, in any case, in the Western world.

00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.000
That these songs have somehow come down

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:50.000
all these bloodstained ages and now metaphosed, metaphosed

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:55.000
become, changed into a vehicle, to liberate,

00:43:55.000 --> 00:44:00.080
not only, the Negro of this country, but all the people in

00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:19.000
James Baldwin: There is tremendous kind of vitality, a tremendous kind of virility, a tremendous kind of dignity and elegance coming all the way, from the auction block, down to 1963.

00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:26.000
There is something stunning about the fact that this virility, this vitality, this elegance and this dignity

00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:37.000
which has been so long maligned, denied and spat upon by this entire country has now become this country's only hope.

00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:40.000
During all these generations,

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:44.000
when we were singing and dancing down on the levee,

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:51.000
when we were happy, as Mr Charlie put it, in our place,

00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:59.000
and singing 'Steal away to Jesus', and eating all those greens, and doing all that funky dancing,

00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:03.000
white people actively cultivated

00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:07.000
in themselves, the expensive delusion,

00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:17.000
that my songs, my greens and my dances

00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:23.000
and the sorrow and the beauty and the force,

00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:28.000
that they heard in these songs

00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:31.000
they cultivated in themselves the delusion that these,

00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:44.000
things apply to something which they called nigger, but do not apply to man, and, in any case, did not apply to them.

00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:51.000
That what happened to me, in my slave quarters, and later in my relevated slave quarters,

00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:59.000
and later in my relevated slave quarters in the North,

00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:09.000
that all of these things, which I endured, was happening to someone else.

00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:11.000
and the danger in which I stood,

00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:15.000
the danger in which my children stood,

00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:25.000
the destruction we encountered, every day and every hour of every day, for generation upon generation,

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:27.650
this was happened to colored people.

00:46:33.000 --> 00:48:50.560
Over there, but it was not happening to Mr. Charlie, it couldn't happen to Mr. Charlie. In a way My presence in the country ensured forever that this was the way it was planned. The spiritual and social ease of all white people because my presence here was designed to pay their dues. For them I suffered and therefore you call it a democratic country. I was guilty and therefore you could be innocent. I was endlessly endangered and therefore you were safe. Now this dilution did terrible things of course to my forefathers and to me and to my contemporaries. And it is doing terrible things as we stand here, as we sit here. To our children, to my children to my nieces and my nephews. But in all the time that I have had to deal consciously with this country and try to be articulate to myself about my own experience. And in watching as we have had to watch in these last sad years. So many children facing so many sheriffs, so many hoses and so many dogs. When I watch for example chiko and selma and avery cross the street with those savages to cross the line, to feed the people against the sheriffs orders. And we watched the sheriff earlier and looked into his eyes and I realized, I think all of us realized that the man we were facing, with his helmet and his ***** and his nightstick and his gun was terrifying. It was for that reason because he was terrifying.

00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:58.008
James Baldwin: No other recourse but to strike.