Black Expressive Culture Narrative Stage: The Disco Kings and Queens; Willie "Ashcan" Jones
Web Video Text Tracks Format (WebVTT)
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[[background noise throughout interview]]
Speaker 1: [[Cross Talk]] I know, um, I wanna direct- I wanna dir-- [[laughter]] I wanna direct my answer to your question.
Speaker 2: [[Cross Talk]] Wait. Wait, we have, we have another part of an answer here, so.
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Speaker 1: Um, I know that rapping has helped me a lot in school. I attended high school for international affairs.
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And, rapping, what I've done with my skills of rapping is that when it comes to a test and studying I like, put together words, rhyme them together and then I make a rap out of my tests or my studies. And--
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[SILENCE]
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Speaker 1: Oh. [[laughter]] Um, Smurf wants me to tell you about a rap that she helped me with my world history test. It's called "International Travels", and what we had to do was learn how to spell all the words and learn all the countries.
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And what we did was we did a rap called "International Travels", and I'm not gonna do it now. You can hear it later, but that's, it's helped me a lot in school.
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Speaker 2: Part 3 of the answer. The only study that I know of, to date, that is an academic study of rapping was done by a group of linguists working in Philadelphia on an education project, and it was actually a literacy project where they were working with teachers who were just literally writing off a lot of the students as people who had no literary skills or no skills which could-- which were useful.
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And yet, these same students-- many of them were just incredible rappers. So the project was developed around rapping and used rapping as the vehicle to, uh, to look at what skills are prevalent in the African American community and how that can be used to the good of the students.
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So, that's a federal survey too. It's not been published yet, but apparently it will be published by the federal government in whatever department of education, I guess papers.
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Speaker 2: Okay. Part 2 of the question, and this'll, that'll close it out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this isn't related to the other, but I wanted to know if there's some relationship on what to do and the music of the Caribbean, Calypso, in terms of making central comment [[?]].
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Speaker 2: [[Cross Talk]] Sure. Sure. Uh,
Speaker 4: [[Cross Talk]] Calypso reggae rhythm blues.
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Speaker 1: Uh, do that rap?
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No, no.
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[[BG]]
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Right, calypso, reggae, rhythm, and blues. That's uh, that's takin all- all the different art forms and puttin' 'em together, so you know like-
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[[BGV]]
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That's in a lot of the raps. That's in a lot-
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[[BGV]]
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Do it? [[BGV]]
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Tryin to figure it out.
Speaker 2: Ok. Uh. It uh, this is a song that by uh, who was it?
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Uh, it's the Soul Sounding Force. The Soul Sounding Force.
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They used to go "Calypso reggae rhythm and blues, master mix those number one tunes.
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Play those favorite songs of mines, and accept my calls on the request line.
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A DJ will play just for you, cause you gotta get down to show one knows how to."
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And then uh, another one that I do that has all the art forms in it is "The music is pumpin sounds has got the floor shakin
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the ability to move is got the able bodied breakin, movin faster and faster
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and somehow it seems as though we're fantasizin or livin a dream.
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Pop blockers, pump rockers climb up onto the floor. The MCs are rockin rythms with rhymes galore.
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And for all of those out there who appreciate rappin be prepared to kick alive because we're fresh and snappin.
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Windmills, backhands, spinnin on your knees and DJs are spinnin beats and tunes to please.
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The feelin feels good and your adrenaline is risen, the graffiti walls has blurred your vision.
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Listen up in the dark hole, boys are makin art.
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The MCs out there are tryin to get up on the chart.
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Billboard, black stars, are all magazines, and the record sales are boomin selling to the teens.
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The evolution of music in the whole has changed, everything is so different, synthesized, and strange.
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But the beat is so unique that on the street, the feelings are the same no matter who you meet.
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Cause the young and the old, they never pause to say, that they wouldn't mind rappin to be a DJ.
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The talents are buried deep within our souls, and we wish to be raised from this hellhole.
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Cause money is hard in the government, and the poor is watchin their every cent.
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While they sit, sad, and sob, have to share and divide, and they're always prayin giving praises to God."
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Speaker 2: Created by MC Caesar. [[applause]]
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Speaker 3: I think the, the link between the forms–the calypso, the toasting in certain areas of the West Indies,
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the message rap. All of this really can be traced back to an African tradition of making social commentary in song.
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Certainly when you listen to African songs, uh, especially the older traditional pieces,
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you find that song was perhaps the major vehicle for making commentary. You could say things in song about your society,
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about your tribal group that you could never say outright. Song was always that sort of vehicle.
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In this country in the African American community, song has long served the same purpose.
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Perhaps the clearest example of this in the 1800s and the early 1900s was the entire African American work song tradition
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where blacks would sing to set a tempo and to ease the tedium of group work. Let's say there might be 50 persons hoeing in a field,
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or shucking oysters, or working in a tobacco factory.
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Though if you listen to the words of these songs,
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and this is the recording of them is one of the great contributions of the Library of Congress
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who sent field workers into the southern states in the 1930s to record work songs.
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When you listen to them you realize there is a, a long tradition of protest there.
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Of social commentary which was the songs were being sung in front of the uh,
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well years and years ago in front of the white slave owners. In this decade they were being sung in front of the white captains and foremen, and,
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and uh bosses on the work gangs. As long as you were working you could say these things in song.
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Well the same use of music as a vehicle for social commentary has carried right through in the Caribbean it has taken the form of Calypso,
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it has taken the form
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Speaker 1: In this country, most recently, it's taken the form of rapping.
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[[Side conversation]] On the east coast.
Speaker 1: [[laughter]] On the east coast. [[/Side conversation]]
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Speaker 1: With that, we're going to have to move on to our next workshops, so I'd like to thank you all for being a great audience, and ask for a hand for the International Playgirls [[clapping]], and The Punk Funk Nation.
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Speaker 2: Thank you. [[clapping]]
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Speaker 1: You'll be able to see them both performing on the main stage, that's the large blue and white tent there, at 4:15 approximately today, where Grandmaster Nell will kick off,
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Speaker 1: and we'll have both groups performing raps, and they'll be joined by The Scanner Boys in Phila--
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Black Expressive Culture in Philadelphia area, a group better known in Philadelphia as "The Disco Queens and Kings".
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The Disco Queens and Kings, have been dancing on the streets of Philadelphia for a number of years.
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They're well-known to Philadelphians as probably the city's premiere GQ dancers.
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What we're going to do here is talk to them about GQ dancing.
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We're going to demonstrate few of the moves that went into it and discuss the evolution of this form.
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Speaker 1: It's a family group, so maybe I should let one of the members of the family begin to tell us who's in the group now, and how large the group is at it's fullest.
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Speaker 1: Richie? This is Richie, uh, Gilford here.
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Richie Gilford: Whho-ho
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Speaker 1: [[laughs]] Richie, hey you're on, that's right. [[laughs]] Could you take some time -- [[Cross talk]]
Richie Gilford: Sorry 'bout that.
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Speaker 1: and ah, introduce the members of the group to us. [00:08:9]
Richie Gilford: How ya'll doin' today? [[audience answers]]
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Richie Gilford: That's good. This Pineapple Gilford. Show 'em a lil tune.
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[[instrument played by Pineapple Gilford]]
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Richie Gilford: This Deserie Thomas right here, my little sister.
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Richie Gilford: Ellison, as Joaquin Love; the manager of our group
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Richie Gilford: This's Paul,the break dancer; Paul Allen.
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Richie Gilford: Can we get a hand? My name is Richie Rich. [[clapping]]
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Richie Gilford: Not the cartoon, but the one in front of you, Richie Rich. Thank You.
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Speaker 1: We are all related, well except Paul, he a friend we met on the streets by the ghetto. But he just like family because he been with us over now 3 years-- 3 to 4 years. I like to say, um, we started downtown, but we started off from our cousin. He died 1983 on a moped. He told this woman, "I was five, my brother was six." They wasn't even in the group then, it was me and him with my oldest cousin. He 22 now but he dead in his grave. That's how I started from my oldest cousin Russell Gilford. But we are all Gilfords, and one time is right here, my little sister (I like)- (speaker 2)How was it that you got started with the group? I was ready to come into that, to be truthful we lived right down the street from a little playground we used to always go inside the playground my cousin bring us in there, we ain't really know how to dance at all, but he started picking up, he used to watch people on the streets, you know people that drink wine, be on the corner singing songs, there was one step called the cha-cha Ima show that to y'all real quick this is how we learned, we learned from the cha cha 5 steps, (dancing, tapping) that is one of the steps, thats how we learned we started from chacha-in, 5 steps up 5 steps back. Then we have the half cha cha, he is going to show you all real quick its still the same but its half (speaker 2) Count it off Richy 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 same thing but it's half way. (speaker 2) So when you started off you talked about this playground but you didn't quite explain how what you were doing and how you ended up on the street? We started playing on, my mom got a lil upset we went into the house one time, we was always good at musician cuz my uncle played drums and lead guitar we went and took my moms pots and pans, brand new pots and pans outta the house took around the playground and started banging on them as drums cuz we didn't have nothing at the time then from there we was dancing, flipping on bars, gymnastics, then from there we started going downtown cuz we seen this man downtown jiggling fire juggling up in the air putting it out in his mouth and I was still young, I was at the age of 6 then so my cousin went down there he used to work on one of them corner stands. He went down there seeing a man doing it right up under city hall in Philadelphia, downtown then he next day he came home took us down there we only had, like I said, 1 drum, just 1 drum and the first time we ever danced downtown and center city on those corners we made 275 dollars. That's how many people loved to see the dancing we do and its called GQ dancing, Gilfords Quality, Gilfords Quality GQ that's the real name for it. (second speaker) Now the tradition of GQ dancing at least in the family here originated with the social dance of the cha cha, he gave an example of 2 forms of the cha cha a simple 5 steps forward and 5 steps back dance that was a dance done in social settings. It wasn't originally intended as a performance dance and when they first saw it, when they first saw the cha cha performed it was where? (speaker 1) like I, like I was saying it was on the corners, these people that my mom knew, they used to always come over to the house it was just some people that my moms socials give socials over at the house the people they was real good, I'm talking about real good the cha cha we do they do a lot better but its always with 5 steps in the cha cha so we learned that from them, then it went on my cousin Russel started teaching us stuff like the Sky Whip, show em that real quick Abs. The sky whip is something real dangerous cuz its spinning up in the air
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Speaker 1: Let's have a hand for Ellison here. Hey, Richie, hold on.
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Speaker 1: What we find with the development of GQ dancing --
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Speaker 1: Let me say a few words about GQ, maybe, before we go into more specific steps.
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Speaker 1: GQ dancing defines a broader form which was really reached its peak of popularity, at least in Philadelphia,
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Speaker 1: in the black community, before popping developed. Now, some of you have seen popping if you've watched, for example, the Scanner Boys. See the moves that they do.
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Speaker 1: The popping was the form that immediately proceeded break dancing,
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Speaker 1: and is concurrent with break dancing. In fact, a part of break dancing, everything that isn't a spin, really, in break dancing, can be defined as popping.
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Speaker 1: Immediately before the popularity of popping in the black community, however, the form of GQ was real popular,
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Speaker 1: and GQ emphasized stepping motions, rather than body glides, rather than robot movements.
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Speaker 1: The emphasis was on the fancy footwork, and that is continuing clearly an old, old tradition within the black community;
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Speaker 1: a tradition easily dating back to the 1800's when you had the development of the solo male dance form; at that time called Buck dancing. [00:14:30
Speaker 1: Buck dancing was a rural dance form. In later years, out of Buck dancing, you had the development on the stage of tap dancing.
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Speaker 1: Alongside Tap and Buck, there were other forms of soft shoe; other forms of stepping traditions within the black community.
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Speaker 1: Some of them you see with girls' drill teams; others you see with fraternity groups who did their college stepping, such as the Groove Phi Grooves, who we have here with us at the festival this year.
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Speaker 1: GQ, as a popular dance form, evolved largely in the 1970's, and really, at least in Philadelphia, swept the area. This was the main performance dance.
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Speaker 1: With the Disco Queens and Kings, it started off with a social dance base; that of the cha-cha. Then you started to add things that were acrobatic moves; moves drawn from a broader repertoire of black dance movements, such as the sky whip; a floor move.
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Speaker 1: There were dance moves also drawn from other traditions as well,
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Speaker 1: such that you put together all these different traditions onto the base which was the cha-cha.
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Speaker 1: Now, one of the other moves, which they added, was interestingly enough a move from Russian dancing.
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Speaker 1: Richie, could you explain how in the world you got the Russian in your movement repertoire?
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{SPEAKER name= "Richie Rich"} Yeah, like, we was still downtown, going down in the Summertime. Like, everyday when it don't rain, we always went down.
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{SPEAKER name= "Richie Rich"} So we seen this Russia man. He told us he was from Russia.
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{SPEAKER name= "Richie Rich"} We wasn't sure though. But he showed us this dance called the Russian. We'd like to show y'all this, too, cause this a hard dance. Wait.
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[[dancing noise]]
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Speaker 1: That's the one handed Russian. [[dancing noise]]
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Speaker 1: And no hands. [[Cross Talk]]
Speaker 2: No hands. [[clapping]]
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[[clapping]]
Speaker 2: That's called the Russian.
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[[clapping]]
Speaker 1: So there what we have right away, we're beginning to see three strands.
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Speaker 1: We've got the social dance. We have a little bit of acrobatics with a sky whip.
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Speaker 1: We've got some ethnic dance. There are a lot of other forms, but one of the major one is probably gymnastics.
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Speaker 1: Have you all done any training in gymnastics, and how did that become part of the dance movements that you do?
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Speaker 2: Really, from watching people. We never learned from nobody,
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Speaker 2: but my cousin, to be truthful, and the people that taught us the cha-cha.
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Speaker 2: That was the only two people we ever learned from. Everything else, we made up on our own and learned on our own,
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Speaker 2: like tumbling. Show them the backhand walkover really quick. The back walkover. [[Move demonstrated]]
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Speaker 2: That's something we learned on our own. The back walkover.
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[[Clapping]]
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Speaker 1: So simple. [[laughing]]
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Speaker 2: Real simple.
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Speaker 2: Another thing I like to show you is called the hand flip. My two li'l cousins gonna show you.
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Speaker 2: We made this up ourself, too, and a lot of people around the world copied this as they seen us doing this.
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[[Move being demonstrated]] [[clapping]]
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Speaker 2: And we got one more thing it's called the foot pull-up. We're gonna show you that one, too.
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Speaker 2: We made all this up ourself. The foot pull-up; this was before poppin', or anything ever got created out here. [[Movement being demonstrated]]
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Speaker 2: [[clapping]] Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Now, it's important to emphasize that what we're doing here on the stage
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Speaker 1: is breaking down the dance moves.
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Speaker 1: Things that look acrobatic here, but may look slow
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Speaker 1: when you put them in the context of a larger sequence of dance moves,
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Speaker 1: and you set them to the rhythm of the drum, which the disco Queens and Kings play with them at all times when they're performing,
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Speaker 1: they take on a whole new sense. It's always putting the moves in sequence that gives them their real special nature.
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Speaker 1: Now there's some other acrobatics moves that you all do. One of them is, uh, I think you call it the donkey kick.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could show you that one myself. The donkey kick rollover. [[Movement demonstrated]]
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[[ryhthmic noise and clapping fades out]]
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Speaker 1: What's most amazing is that they're able to do that on this raggedy stage here.
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Speaker 2: Yeah this is a lil raggedy stage but it's still aight.
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'Cause we used to dancin' on a block from here to this line anyway. We could dance on stuff small like that anyway.
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Speaker 1: Now there are a number of other moves that they've, they've taken in. What we've talked about so far then are now four dance traditions.
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We've talked about ethnic dance, social dance, talked about acrobatics and gymnastics--
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[[Cross Talk]]
Speaker 2: And we--
Speaker 1: Uh--
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Speaker 1: Go ahead.
Speaker 2: We got another one too, we got so many of em. We'd be up here all day if we tried to show y'all everything.
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But it's called the floor attack, show em that one [[???, name perhaps Tai]] the floor attack.
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[[scattered cheers and applause]]
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Speaker 1: Now in terms of acrobatics, in terms of flash, you must recognize that if you're a street dancer, if you're out there dancing for money, dancing for tips, you want to do something more than just standard forms of dancing.
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You want to try for something unusual, so you develop your flash, you develop your own individual tricks.
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When you speak with dancers such as LaVaughn Robinson, the tap dancer, he'll tell you that when he was growing up in Philadelphia in the 1930s tap dancing was then the predominant street form.
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Yet tap dancers were a dime a dozen, everybody on every block knew how to tap dance.
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All the kids were out on the street doing it. So in order to get a job, if you really wanted to go beyond the street, you had to come up with something unique, something flashy.
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What developed out of that was the tradition of flash tap dancing, where suddenly you had the incorporation of some rather remarkable acrobatic moves within the tap repertoire.
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Well this whole drive towards flash is also found in contemporary street performance.
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When the Disco Queens and Kings, perhaps one of the most impressive moves that is a pure flash move something to gather the crowd and to make everyone's jaws drop, is the stick jump, or what started as the stick jump.
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Ellison could you tell us how that started and where you've planned-- where you've taken it and where you plan to take it.
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Ellison: Okay, I started jumping over a stick about four years ago. A long stick, then I broke it down and it just got smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. Now I can jump over a keychain with a key on it.
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And soon I'll be able to jump over a cigarette butt. I'm still working on it.
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But here's a routine.
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[[Cross Talk]]
Speaker 2: It's really hard y'all. Don't let your kids ever try this.
Speaker 1: What-- Watch
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Speaker 2: Don't let your little kids try that they might flip over.
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Richie Rich: Jumping over it. Over it. Never took his hands off. Over. [[clapping]]
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Speaker 1: Show them what you're jumping over there Ellison, hold that up.
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Richie Rich: Keychain. With a key on it. [[clapping]]
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Next, we've got for y'all something real popular we discovered a year ago. It's called spinning on the head. Show 'em one time, Paul.
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.000
Speaker 1: [[Movement being demonstrated]] Do you really want to do that on this floor?
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:19.000
Richie Rich: Yeah, he can do it cuz we practiced on it. [[silence]] It's to be done; here.
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:24.000
We pros. Spinning on the head. [[Movement being demonstrated]] [[clapping]]
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.000
Give him a real big hand we gotta hear y'all for this one. [[clapping]]
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:37.000
Thank you very much. Yeah. [[clapping]]
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:46.000
Speaker 1: The key to street dancing, is that you can borrow from any tradition, as long as you can make it fit in your dance sequences.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:50.000
Now, the head spin is clearly a move from breakdancing.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:55.000
Paul, here, is a breakdancer. That's his specialty with the Disco Queens and Kings.
00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:05.000
In a group like this, everyone can have their own specialty that makes the group only that much more exciting when they are on the stage, or more specifically when they are on the street.
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:10.000
Because as long as you can keep changing styles, as long as you can flip from one form to another,
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:17.000
you keep the audience interested, and you keep those nickels, dimes, dollar bills, five-dollar bills, hopefully, coming into the hat.
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:24.000
The last form which I'd like to have the group demonstrate to you is the most complex form, and
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:31.000
the form that people are so surprised at when they see it happening on the streets of Philadelphia,
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:36.000
and that's tap dancing. The Disco Queens and Kings
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:44.000
have carried on the entire tradition of stepping; of soft-shoe stepping into their own repertoire.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:49.000
When they began to watch other dancers, they took GQ and disco tap
00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:53.000
one step beyond to look at other tap dancers,
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.000
and begin to incorporate actual tap dancing steps.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:03.000
Now, while you are putting on your shoes, could you explain a little about where you got tap moves from,
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.310
and why they became -- why you added them to the repertoire movement?
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:15.000
Richie Rich: Well to be truthful, I know y'all remember Shirley Temple, Bojangles who taught Shirley Temple, and Fred Astaire.
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:22.000
Richie Rich: We learned from watching them old fashion back in 1930 T.V. shows.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:27.000
Richie Rich: Way back there, we learned from really watching them T.V. shows every Saturdays.
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:35.000
Speaker 1: practice it all, then try and learn more and more. But Devine, the real tap dancer,
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:44.000
Richie Rich: Devine showed us the one foot tap, and it's real hard to do because you gotta keep your foot steady, and let it roll. (R TRILL)
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:49.000
Richie Rich: Show 'em one time.
00:24:49.000 --> 00:25:00.000
Richie Rich: [[Tapping]] Let it be steady. [[Tapping]]
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:27.000
Richie Rich: The kind of tap dancing that we got off T.V., I'd like to show you. [[Tapping]]
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:34.000
Richie Rich: Now the disco tapping is a little bit different cause it's right along with the disco music.
00:25:34.000 --> 00:26:07.000
Richie Rich: It's called disco tap, and me and my brother would like to show you together. [[Tapping and applause]] Thank you very much.
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:08.000
Speaker 1:
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:17.000
I think at this point, there are many out there who might have questions for the disco queens and kings on the dance moves or on the whole tradition of dancing in the streets.
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:19.000
Speaker 1: Are there any questions for them at this point?
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:25.000
Richie Rich: Hold up before you ask questions, I know y'all probably heard a kazoo before, it only costs 50 cents.
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:33.000
Richie Rich: We got this about five years ago as we was downtown we bought it out The Gallery. Listen to the sound of it.
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:43.000
Richie Rich: [[Plays Yankee Doodle on Kazoo]] [[whistle]]
00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:50.000
Richie Rich: That's called a kazoo. We use this with our rhythm cause it's something good to use instead of all of them horns and stuff.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:56.700
Richie Rich: This is something real good to use, instead of buying you a $75 horn, this sound a little better to me then a horn.
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:03.000
Speaker 1: The other advantage of course, is that the kazoo and the drums are easily movable.
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.000
Speaker 1: So that when you go downtown, and you pack it all on the bus if you have to,
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:13.000
Speaker 1: carry the drums with you, carry the kazoo, set up where you get out, set up wherever the police aren't going to hassle you,
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:19.000
Speaker 1: and they, uh, used to be around the clothespin in the -- right near City Hall in Philadelphia.
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.000
Speaker 1: Police started hassling people there, so it's --
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:29.000
Speaker 1: now a matter of getting a permit and choosing a--a store front that will allow you to perform regularly in front of the store front.
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:34.000
Speaker 1: But the kazoo, of course; something that you can carry, and is quite handy. Now questions --
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.000
[[Background Voices]]
Speaker 1: Are they going to dance?
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:41.000
Speaker 1: You've missed their last performance on the main stage. [[Background Voices]]
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:45.000
Speaker 2: We'll do a little bit for y'all. Y'all wanna see a little bit? [[Applause]] [[Cheering]]
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:47.000
Speaker 2: Okay. We'll do a little bit for y'all. [[Applause]]
00:27:47.000 --> 00:28:04.000
[SILENCE]
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:31.000
[[Dancing]] [[Shout]] Yeah! [[Whistling]] [[Shout]] Woo! [[Background Voices]] [[Shout]] Woo! [[Whistling]] [[Applause]]
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:34.000
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. [[Applause]] [[Cheering]]
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.000
Speaker 2: There's more to it than that, but we just can't do but so much. [[Applause]]
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:43.000
Speaker 1: Other questions? [[Silence]]
00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:47.000
Speaker 2: Come on ask us some questions,we like them --
Speaker 1: Come on now y'all didn't learn that much in the workshop. Yes ma'am?
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:55.000
[[Background Voice]]
Speaker 1: Okay. How long have you been doing it? How many years?
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:58.000
[[Background Voice]]
Speaker 1: How old are you now? Right.
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:05.000
Speaker 2: I'm 18 now, and my brother right here 19, my little sister, 8 years old.
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:11.000
Speaker 2: She been dancing since she was 5, too. She 14, she started when she around about 7.
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:17.940
Speaker 2: Paul right here, 14, he started when he was around out 10 to 12, something like that.
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:23.000
Speaker 1: We was real young. (background voices)
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:28.000
[[silence]]
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:36.000
[[background noises and talking]]
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:46.000
Speaker 2: Uh -- it's real hard to any demonstrations of breakdancing on this stage. We just did a headspin a little while ago.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:50.000
Speaker 1: We are going to just do the 1990.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:02.000
[[silence]]
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:08.000
Speaker 1: To be truthful, he is the only one in Philadelphia that got this.
Speaker 2: Hey, tell them what 1990 is.
Speaker 1: [[talking at the same time]] It's called the elbow spin.
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:14.000
[[hiss sound in the background]] [[Background Noise]]
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:19.000
Speaker 1: The 1990 is spinning on one hand. [[another loud background sound]]
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:24.000
Speaker 1: where we stand is too small, we going to do the elbow for you all real quick, thats spinning on your elbow.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:29.000
up in the air on your elbow. he the only one in Philadelphia really that can do all this stuff.
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:36.000
spinning on the elbow. [[clapping in background]]
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:44.000
Speaker 1: We really running up time right now.
Speaker 2: So we'll have two more quick questions. One is right there.
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.000
[[silence]]
00:30:48.000 --> 00:31:04.000
Speaker 1: The movie breaking alright but, before breaking it all kinda stuff came out we been on corners doing lots of better things than the movies breaking and stuff. Break dancing don't really mean anything to me because I'm a GQ dancer and I make breaking look bad the way I dance for real on tap.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:10.000
it don't mean nothing to me it's just a thing where you're hurting yourself to be truthful. [[clapping in background]]
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:17.000
Speaker 2: One last question, yes sir.
From Audience: Speaking of hurting yourself, how do you keep from breaking your neck like one person did when you're break dancing?
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:20.000
Speaker 1: It's practice, It's practice, a lot of practice I guess. A lot.
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:27.000
Speaker 1: [[crosstalk]] it takes a lot.
Speaker 2: A lot of break dancers actually lift weights with their necks to build up their muscles.
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:34.000
Speaker 2: so they can do the head spins [[interrupt]]
Speaker 1: but breaking on your head without a hat, all it do is draw a bald spot on the middle of your head.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:38.820
Speaker 1: Without a hat, it will definitely draw a bold spot, you gotta get all of that cut off.
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:44.000
1: Okay let's have a big hand please for the Disco Queens and Kings.
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:46.000
[[Applause]]
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, too.
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:48.000
[[Applause]]
Speaker 1: It's their last stage appearance at the festival here.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.000
[[Applause]]
Speaker 2: God bless all y'all. Everybody say , "Huh"!
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.000
[[Background Voices]]
Speaker 2: And don't never forget get us. Everybody say Queens and Kings!
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.000
[[Background Voices]]
Speaker 2: God bless with you all. Good luck with y'all.
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:06.000
[[Applause]]
Speaker 1: Now come on down to Philadelphia on some weekend, just hit downtown and you'll see them out there in the summer.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:13.000
[SILENCE]
Speaker 1: --Stage. Before Willie was a dance--was a comic, he was a dancer.
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:20.000
Speaker 1: Again, working Tent Show Stages, Nightclubs, Broadway Reviews, and of course the Savoy Ballroom in New York City.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:26.000
Speaker 1: What we're going to do today, is talk about those traditions of entertainment.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:33.000
Speaker 1: We'll talk for a little while about a few of the selected traditions, let's say Carnival, and Minstrelsy,
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:38.000
Speaker 1: some aspects of dance, how he got to be a humorist, why we're doing this on the stage here,
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:44.000
Speaker 1: and then we'll open up the floor to questions from the audience about any of the traditions that we'll discuss.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:51.000
Speaker 1: The best way to start is to simply say that when we're talking about traditions,
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:58.000
Speaker 1: here at the festival, most people think of traditions passed from generation to generation;
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:07.000
Speaker 1: from father to son, from mother to daughter. The traditions we'll be talking about here on the stage are not traditions passed down in that way,
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:16.000
Speaker 1: rather they are traditions of the black stage. Traditions passed not from Father to Son, but from older performer to younger performer.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:24.000
Speaker 1: And it's that passage, on the stage, all the time. Not on the street, not necessarily in other settings.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:31.000
Speaker 1: Not at house parties or places like that, but rather on the professional stage where traditions of comedy and traditions of dance
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:38.000
Speaker 1: are passed on so that jokes being told in a African American owned Minstrel show in 1890,
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:43.000
Speaker 1: were still being told in 1940, in a black Carnival show,
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:49.660
Speaker 1: and are still being told in senior citizen centers and on the stage of the Folk Live Festival here today.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:58.000
Speaker 1: What was that Willie? [laughs] I, I know you aren't that old.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:04.000
So we'll start off by uh -- Willie could you tell us, how you got your break into show business?
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:06.000
Now you started off in Georgia, didn't you?
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:15.000
Willie: That's right. Ya, I was in Georgia, I was, I say, August, Georgia,
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:21.000
but when you hear me say Augusta, Georgia, I was 10 miles out of Augusta. I was on a farm,
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.000
but that was the closest big town to me.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:31.000
And uh, and I used to come to town to see the carnival and the circuses.
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:35.000
And I used to come, and when we get there, we wouldn't have money to go in, so we used to carry water,
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:44.000
they'll open a fire plug them years ago, and we would take buckets of water for the animals,
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.000
and then they would give us a pass to go in the show.
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:55.000
So, later on, I wanted to leave. I got about 10 years old, I wanted to leave.
00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:00.000
So uh, I tried to leave with a carnival. they told me "no"; they wouldn't let me go.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:06.000
But when I got 13 I put my age up, and I left with the carnival.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:14.000
But I didn't work the carnival doing -- I was helping round the carnival, helping put up tents, and running errands, and doing things like that.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:19.000
I wasn't dancing on the stage or doing nothing on the stage. So I kept on with them
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:25.000
until I got all the way to Washington. When I got to Washington, I had an aunt in Atlantic City.
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:28.000
so I went over to my aunt's, where she was,
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:35.000
and she put me back in school. I stayed in school one year, and then I left and went to New York.
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:38.000
Now you know what I want to know for 'em?
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:44.000
Today I'm going to give you an idea and what a carnival is like,
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:49.000
and how you make your money on a carnival. That's good.
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:53.000
Speaker 1: [away from mic] Let me, let me say a quick word about carnivals
Speaker 2: Ok.
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:56.000
Speaker 1: There's one thing, since we're going to talk about carnivals today, as off now --
00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:06.000
one thing I want to say about carnivals. You know, when we think of carnivals nowadays, how many people here think of performing shows, at a carnival?
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:11.000
There's a few hands out there. [[Cross talk]]
Willie: Very few today.
Speaker 1: Very few.
00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:18.000
Willie: Most carnivals nowadays, are what? They're rides, -- [[Cross talk]]
Speaker 1: Ya, they know that
Willie: they're games, right?
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:24.000
Speaker 1: Rides and games. Sometimes you have a show, a freak show, something of that sort, see the bearded lady,
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:29.000
see the woman turned into a boa constrictor, [[Cross talk]]
Willie: Don't have them much.
Speaker 1: not much of that anymore.
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:37.000
However, traditionally, back, shoot, back all the way into the 1800s, and all the way up --
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:42.220
Willie: Ya up.
Speaker 1: until fairly recent years. I know you're not that old, Will. We already knew that.
Willie: Bring it up a little.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:50.000
Speaker 1: Carnivals carried with them at least one top, one tent, which specialized in performance.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:57.000
Now, in the white-owned and operated carnivals, which was almost all carnivals,
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:05.000
especially in the early part of the century, there was always a tent which included Black performers, and only Black performers.
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:11.000
Willie, could you tell us a little bit about the nature of that tent. What was that called and why was it there?
00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:20.000
Willie: Well, I'm gon'a tell 'em, but I wanna give them some calls, how to get 'em in, [[crosstalk]]
Speaker 1: Okay.
Willie: what the difference --
Speaker 1: Do a, do the whole thing there.
Willie: that's what I wanna do.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:28.000
[[side conversation]] Gimme yours. I want yours. Oh come on. Okay.
Speaker 1: Just turn it on. There you go. [[hard to hear]]
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:36.000
Willie: Now ladies and gentlemen, what I'm getting ready to say. The show was called, ah, a plantation show.
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:42.000
Some of it call it a Minstrel Show. It would call a Jig Show, it was called different things.
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:49.000
In in that show, you'd have singers, dancers. You'd have a chorus girl, you'd have a blue singers, tap dancers.
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:54.000
You'd have all that, and that was ah 'bout an hour and a half show you would get.
00:37:54.000 --> 00:38:02.000
But the first thing befo -- on the carnival, before you could give a show, you had to tell the people what you were gonna do.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:11.000
You would get outside and say, "Ladies and gentlemen, right down, in close. We gon' bring 'em out and give you a li'l on the outside. We do a whole lot on the inside!
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:17.000
Come on down ladies and gentlemen! Come right down and close! Come on now, in close! Yeah, just put one foot in front of the other, and you'll be right down here."
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:22.000
Yeah, well alright. They don't come down in these sidelines and leave a hole in the middle.
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:29.000
I said, "Would you please cover up that hole!". I thought someone would fall and break their leg and I'd have to shoot 'em.
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:31.000
Well, that would, you know, make them come down.
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:36.000
Then I would say, "Fellow back there, hey!". I say, "Yeah. I know you don't wanna go in this show.
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:44.000
I know your mother told you not to go in that car, my mother told me not to go in there. She said if you go in that show, you'll see something you don't wanna see."
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:51.000
So one day I slipped in, and then she would tell me the truth. I saw something I didn't wanna see; it was my father sitting on the front seat.
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.000
[[audience laughs]]
Willie: [[laughs]]
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.000
Hey, but come now then, you say, uh -- you'll bring somebody out tonight.
00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:01.000
"Ladies and gentlemen." This is, this is the way you'd have to have call, that's why he was telling you then
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:09.000
that you would have to have this show for the family, because everyone didn't come to play games then, didn't come to ride.
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:13.000
And they won't let you bring a show in, unless you bring a mister to show with it.
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:20.000
So you would tell 'em to come on in, and then you would give them a picture. And, "Now ladies and gentlemen, we'll bring out the girl. She gon' do a little dance for ya."
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:24.000
She'll come out and do a little dance, said now she'll do more on the inside.
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:28.000
And you said "This is the show for the ladies, gentlemen, and children; It's a family show."
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:33.000
There will nothing be said, seen or done, to offend the most fastidious person among you.
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:39.000
Then you'll bring a comedian out. "And now this is the man, if he don't make you laugh, he'll make you laugh on one side, and down the other.
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:44.850
If you don't laugh at him, go see you family doctor or somethin', there's somethin' wrong with your life and apparatus."
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:55.000
Willie: And then he would say, "Hah, come on now then, everybody gettin' settled. Now get in line. So now, ladies and gentlemen," cause it was night time, "we had a matinee this afternoon.
00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:01.000
And we had matinee tickets, but they went off at five 'o clock, it's not seven. So we gon' do somethin' for just three minutes."
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:08.000
"Alright, ticket sellers, put away your doll -- your three dollar tickets and take up the dollar and a half tickets." They put 'em away.
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:15.000
"So now, ladies and gentlemen, if you fast enough and quick enough, in the next three minutes, you all come back and say the man said,
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:22.000
'Get in line, you can get in for half price.' You're lines at the ticket box here, and a ticket box there."
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:30.000
"So you get in line. So long as you're in line," and you say, "If you don't like the show, you come right back out to this ticket box and ask for your money back.
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:36.000
So now come right back and ask for your money back. You won't get it back, but we'll have hell of a time talkin' it over."
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:38.000
[[Willie laughs]] [[audience laughs]]
00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:47.000
Willie: And then that show gone off. Now, later on, the [[mess?]] up there, Carnival Show, was different from the Minstrel Show. The Minstrel Show would have a late concert.
00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:55.000
The Carnival Show, I know lot of ya'll heard, of a Midnight Ramble. Anybody heard of the Midnight Ramble?
00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:04.000
Well that late show be The Midnight Ramble. You hear the barker come on out and say, "Now ladies and gentlemen, I know you been in here on the weekend, ya' see, but tonight is The Midnight Ramble.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:09.000
No children. you must be over the age 18 and under the age of 80.
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:18.000
The reason for that, if you're under the age of 18, you wouldn't understand it; if you're over the age of 80, God knows you couldn't stand it."
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:26.000
[[audience laughs]]
Speaker 1: So then you'll say, "Well now ladies, now this time, we gon' bring Kitty from Kansas City out. The way she shakes it is a pity."
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:33.000
Willie: "That's right. Now ladies and gentlemen, if you can't stand nothing hot, let's go on down to midway and get you some popcorn and ride the Merry Go 'Round and go home, and say you had a good time.
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:43.000
"This is for the broad minded ladies and gentlemen. That time ladies and gentlemen, this time we gon' bring Long Tall Sally doin' a dance called 'Duck Back In The Alley'." [[shout from audience]] Woah!
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:51.000
Willie: "They gon' bring her up. Now, no, she not gon' do the dance she did today. She'll pull off a little here and a little here, and a little here yonder."
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:58.000
And then you'll say, "Alright now. This time ladies and gentlemen, the last dancer we gon' bring out, she don't pull off anything.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:05.970
Now I know she don't pull off anything, because she won't have on nothin' to pull off. But that's the ramble, with no children for that one. That's it, that's it."
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:17.000
[[Clapping]]
Speaker 1: That was a rare treat. That was the first time at the festival that we've heard some of the carnival front talk here.
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:24.000
A word needs to be said about Minstrel shows. Willie was talking about Minstrel shows on a carnival.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:33.000
Now, when most people think of Minstrel shows, at least when most who have never seen a Minstrel Show, think about the minstrelsy,
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:38.000
they think of a tradition that was developed by whites in the 1800s,
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:49.000
Where whites would don cork; would put burnt cork on their faces and perform what were really caricatures of African-American music, and dance and humor.
00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:56.000
When people talk about minstrelsy, more often than not they think about these whites in blackface,
00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:07.000
doing the mockery and the mimicry of African-American culture. What folks tend to forget is that about, again, in the 1880s, the 1890s,
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:13.000
African-Americans themselves began to take Black minstrel shows out of the road.
00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:19.000
They borrowed the same format, the same performance format in terms of starting off in a certain way,
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:30.000
dividing the performance into three sections; some of the same comedies, some of the same styles of dance, that were being done on the white-owned and -operated minstrel shows.
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:39.000
Except now the Black-owned shows were employing only Black performers, and showing almost entirely to Black audience.
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:45.000
[SILENCE]
Speaker 1: so you had the development in the Black Minstrel shows of an entirely new form of minstrelsy.
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:53.000
It was this form of minstrelsy that was ultimately borrowed by the carnival shows, the plantation shows that Willie was talking about.
00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:02.000
Those shows took the large Minstrel shows, which featured a band, a blues singer, some dancers, some comedians,
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:12.000
and took parts of that show compressed it did small routines, short bits, a little bit of music - you didn't had as full of a band - and you put it on with the carnival.
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:23.000
So, when we talk about minstrelsy, we aren't talking about white face minstrelsy at all, or black face minstrelsy done by whites, but rather we're talking about minstrelsy performed by blacks,
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:33.000
largely to black audiences. Now, in the carnivals, clearly unlike the Minstrel shows, you are showing to mixed audiences.
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:38.000
You weren't always working with the black audiences because the carnival would move into a town,
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:42.000
and you'd deal with both black and white audiences. Willie-
Willie: Yes
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:56.000
Speaker 1: What was done about that? Was there any uh--
[SILENCE] First of all, how did the carnival treat the entry of blacks and whites? Were they -- Did they bring them into the same show? Was there a way of keeping them divided while in the show?
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:04.000
Willie: Aw yeah, they probably went to the same show, but on the thing they would divide them by putting a line right straight down the middle.
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:16.000
The white on one side, the colored on the other, and I'll tell you what, if then white side got filled up and the colored side was half open, they would be right over there.
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:23.490
If the colored side got filled up, and the white side be open, they'd be right over there. And everybody would sit together; no kind of argument.
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:30.000
Willie: That's a--that's dumb thing--that's a little rope, dividin' ye.
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:37.000
Speaker 1: The uh, a question we often get on the stage when we discuss this, has to do with the use of cork.
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:45.000
Now, clearly, when the whites did Minstrel shows, they were mocking Black performance forms,
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:51.000
and they were doing so by putting burnt cork on their faces and hands to darken their skin.
00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:02.000
In the black community, the performance tradition that extended, I guess well into the 1940s, probably, also called-- [[Cross-talk]]
Willie: Oh yeah, to the early 50s, some of it.
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:12.000
Speaker 1: also called for the use of cork; though it was black performers showing, at least on the Minstrel stage to all-black audiences, the cork was still used.
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:19.000
Willy, could you talk a little bit about that? First, maybe why it was done, and then -- how it was that it came to change?
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:28.000
Willie: Well I can't tell you exactly how it was done, but it was a tradition we saw other people do it
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:32.000
and when we started the show, we had -- we did that to start the show off.
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:45.000
You know, start off having our own show, because it was owned by somebody else before, and they, and uh, a lot of people don't know even uh, that the white show was black -- was white people.
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:53.000
How many here know that Amos and Andy was white? [[Cross-talk]]
Speaker 1: This is the Amos and Andy Radio Team
Willie: A lot of people didn't know it.
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:58.000
Amos and Andy was white. The two black crows was white.
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:05.000
But now, Amos and Andy's show after television, they turned it back over to us because uh --
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:09.000
they couldn't show it on television like that, and they had so many squa [[sqabbles]] --.
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:13.000
They had made enough money. They was millionaires, that's why, and they gave it back to us.
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:18.000
But they had made their money mocking us all the time,
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:25.000
and a lot of people didn't know; I didn't know it till' last week, that so many people didn't know that they wasn't-- they was white.
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:31.000
I thought everybody knew they was white. So many people told me they didn't know it. They thought they was always colored, but they wasn't.
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:38.000
So, so that's why we used the makeup, I used the makeup. I used the makeup; put a big lip on and everything,
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:46.000
and uh-- in the early 50s, uh-- late 40s, they start to gettin' away from it.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:52.000
Nobody -- You didn't have to -- Why should you black up to be yourself?
00:47:52.000 --> 00:48:00.000
Didn't have to black up to be yourself. So I stopped blackin' up. I still went to -- still kept putting the big lips on to make my mouth wider,
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:08.400
and I was workin' with a lady, and she said to me "Why you make your mouth wider?" I told her. She say "Your lips big enough without that then." [[laughter]]
00:48:13.000 --> 00:50:13.896
So then I stopped, I didn't do that anymore. So that's, that's as far as I can go. I really don't know-
