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00:15:02
00:17:16
00:15:02
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Transcription: [00:15:02]
{SPEAKER name="Sam Gilliam"}
it got down to the gift. I mean, she had resolved a big deal with this [[? marriage]].

[00:15:09]
{SPEAKER name="Judith Wilson"}
Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:10]
{SPEAKER name="Sam Gilliam"}
Certain kind of basic, you know, duty. And I think that she-she rivaled, I won't say, or she equals, you know, anyone that would want to appear. And I think that the accomplishment is she did it at the end, that's really the accomplishment.

[00:15:35]
{SPEAKER name="Judith Wilson"}
[[laughs]] There's one other thing that I wanted to ask before I let you go - I'm sure you've got a million things to do - and that-that was, I was just curious - did she ever experience any, what, hostility or criticism from other blacks in terms of the fact that she was doing abstract work and ostensibly work that didn't refer to her ethnicity?

[00:15:57]
{SPEAKER name="Sam Gilliam"}
I doubt it because see, um. No, not here. And probably nowhere and not with anyone in Washington for instance, eh, because practically every painter that was actually showing our exhibiting was working abstractly and working in a very open light. And one thing has always been true about Washington, Washington has been perhaps the most open city as far as our concern, for blacks, then anywhere in the country. That gallery that actually maintained the most established painters that they had their, Washington had their shows at a gallery run by Howard University, not by galleries downtown because that was not accepted.

[00:16:45]
{SPEAKER name="Sam Gilliam"}
And this is one of the interesting things I recall Alma and - talk to Jim, yes, that's right, um - At [[name of gallery?]] here in Washington I guess Richard Speck recently had come down from New York, he suddenly ran through the crowd because he had to say hello to Alma.

{SPEAKER name="Judith Wilson"} Oh

{SPEAKER name="Sam Gilliam"}
I asked someone about that, well, what happened is that in the early days when things were getting started the people who actually helped those guys
[00:17:17]


Transcription Notes:
Alma Thomas is the African American artist being discussed in the interview; she died four months before the interview took place. Sam Gilliam's voice is very soft and hard to hear in recording. Thanks for continuing to work on this project! We understand that the recording can be difficult to hear and appreciate your efforts.-Megan, AAA Staff