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{SPEAKER name="Ed Ruscha"}
Well there's less imagery in John's work I think, and more

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
More intellectual too, and more formal.

{SPEAKER name="Ed Ruscha"}
There was less of a social contact. Rauschenberg's images always contained so many things that we're all in love with, like birds and everything else, and, and using them in radical ways but,
John's was colder. His work was much colder.
And also, it was like, um, deliciousness, the deliciousness of his work was, I think, enhanced by the fact that it was not yet quite endorsed by museums and by the established, uh, art critics.
And at least to my point of view was not.

And uh, it was like Outlaw Art, and I think that's

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
[[Laughter]] Yeah, yeah.

{SPEAKER name="Ed Ruscha"}
that's what attracted me to it, and made it important to me.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
What do you do?

{SPEAKER name="Ed Ruscha"}
Because it was an enigma, a true enigma. It was just so head-scratching that it, that it gained its power that way.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
What is even Outlaw Art anymore, you know?

{SPEAKER name="Ed Ruscha"}
Well, there's always Outlaw Art, you know.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
I know, but, but to one at a given time.

{Jan Butterfield}
The kind that I miss now more than anything else

{Ed Ruscha}
I mean something it just, you know, it just hits you, just K.O.s you. Just you know, renders you useless.

{Jan Butterfield}
Yeah, but it's been a long time since that happened to me and there are few things there are few people that mirrors of anything new or anything kind of whatever I'm having a lot of trouble with new right now and stuff. Really having a lot of trouble.

{Jan Butterfield}
It's that kind of thing.

{Ed Ruscha}
Well it'll happen, it'll happen again. There's always something new.

{Jan Butterfield}
Oh yeah. There's a lot new but it is, the older you get there is that kind of, wistfulness, that has to do with where is that.
When we were in Venezuela, um, I got talking to a wonderful, strange art critic there who didn't speak much English.
He was talking about major works of art and there's a thing phrase, we don't have it in English but in Spanish it's called la canonal it's like a cannon ball in the chest.
[[laughter]] I love the Spanish phrase. But, it is that kind of thing.

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