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00:19:41
00:23:41
00:19:41

Transcription: [00:19:41]
{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Do you find it less problematical [[??]] or enjoy doing it or whatever and their really two different animals, you know? And there are a lot of people who justify poor work or ineffectual work or, or tease work, whatever you want to say, with textual material and that doesn't count.
[00:19:58]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Yeah, but I think that

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
They make up for bad work by saying "Here's what I meant to do."

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
OK, the other way around

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Or tell you how you are suppose to feel about it.
[00:20:05]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
The other way around is to take a figure like Tom Francis and say well, OK, I'm in the studio all the time, but what good has that done for the artist.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Well. Yeah.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
It is

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
The point is, the work should be able to stand on it's own. There should be not
[00:20:21]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Very much so

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
There should be relief.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
[[laughs]]

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Touche.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
[[laughs]]
[00:20:31]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
One of the problems I had dealing with Sand, was that, he said, "If you are going to write a catalog for me, you are not going to discuss, me, my history". You know, no. If you are going to write a catalog for me my history or the work.
[00:20:45]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
So, what good is that?

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
And those are the restrictions under that...

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
You have to discuss the work.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
which we had to agree to take it on

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
It's got to be

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
I said, "But that's what you do in a catalog". And he said, "But, that's what you are not going to do in my catalog".

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Exactly, he wants mystification, he wants mystification, right?
[00:20:59]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
No, he doesn't want mystification.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
But, you'd have to discuss the works, unless you'd want to mystify, right?

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Right, unless it's exposed.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Absolutely.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Well, but I see.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
You don't have to discuss him. He's out of the picture. That's fine. That's fine, put him on the side. Because that's the way I feel it should, but he has to do, I agree with him very strongly. But, my God, if you can't discuss the work then you're out the window or out the door. I mean forget it, your production is totally mystified.
[00:21:27]

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Ah, well. It can be. I mean I would like to think that I didn't mystify it. OK? I would like to think that what I did was to put something in context.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Did I? I didn't realize that you did something for him.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Yeah, I did. I did a catalog for the Boston... No, no, no. It's interesting.
[00:21:45]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Oh, that's funny.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
It really was a challenge. Because I did a catalog for the Boston Museum and one for the County. OK?

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
[[laughs]]
[00:21:50]

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Right, one of my... together...

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
I, I was the ugliest...

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
No, but it is a perfect example. Because, of he was interesting for me.
[00:22:00]
Because, I had been working with [[non-artists?]] for so long. That I had to run... I had to start dealing with another kind of attitude. Which actually turned out to be a similar kind of attitude. [[inaudible]]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Sure
[00:22:14]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
...similar material. But, I would like to see if it wasn't demystifying.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
But, what I'm saying is that, well going back to your original statement, I'm saying that heres a person that's not tolerant. Ah, and he stayed in his studio, and he stayed in his studio and it seems to be by [[?]].
[00:22:32]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Well, but he said something about [[?]]

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
[[?]]
[00:22:38]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Well, then you have to ask yourself, whether or not, whether, um, mystification is a [[language?]].

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Well,
[00:22:48]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Then you have to decide how well you know... I mean, I could talk 3 hours about Corbet Still, OK? You have to decide how calculated that mystification was on his part. Or how...
[00:22:58]
And, I mean you could hardly call him a naive. So that's...

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
No, no, no, no, no. OK

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
But Corbet still did it deliberately,
[00:23:06]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
OK, so did that Reinhardt. [[talking over each other]]

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
He was not at all naive.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
So did Reinhardt?

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
No.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
He got busted?
[00:23:11]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
All that pettiness.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
As a matter of fact, [[Huma?]] did too.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
But, ah, that's OK too. I mean, that's part of the act. You can't separate that. Because there is no way to separate that. There's no way to separate that attitude of Stills. That rigidity is also there in the painting. And I don't think calling it mystification is, is real correct. See what I mean?
[00:23:34]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Yeah, well, I would call it mystification when it's done unintentional.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
When it's done unintentional?

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Yeah.
[00:23:42]

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