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ment, plus when the applicant applied for a certificate, it was to obtain route protection for the future, so that when, as and if the operations became profitable, they wouldn't  immediately be faced with somebody else coming in there, which could easily have happened if they didn't have a certificate.

Senator Lausche. I don't know whether you answered this question or not. Has the Department of Defense taken the position that it will not give support to the proposition that this subsidy should be continued as a means of aiding in experimentation?

Mr. Boyd. I don't know the answer to that, Senator.  To the show-cause order of the Board, which proposes this phaseout, 5-year phaseout, there have been a number of responses.

The Department of Commerce, who, I understand, represents the Post Office Department and the Department of Defense, filed a notice of objections last Friday.  I have not read it. My guess is they are opposed, because I understand Commerce is opposed.

Senator Lausche. Do you have a separate Department or Division in your Administration dealing with helicopter service, or does it operate within the general subsidy of all their runs?

Mr. Boyd. It operates under everything, except the formal hearings, which are handled by hearing officers, coming under Mr. Roth's Bureau of Economic Relations.  Mr. Schneider is in charge of all the subsidy aspects for all carriers.

Senator Lausche. I think that is all that I Have.

Senator Monroney. Senator Cannon?

Senator Cannon. I have no further questions.

Senator Monroney. Senator Hart?

Senator Hart. Is there an application pending from Willow Run into Detroit?

Mr. Boyd. My recollection is that there are two or three.

Senator Hart. I understand that earlier this morning you expressed an opinion about the feasibility of some in addition to the three that you testified on.  Is the Detroit operation such a one?

Mr. Boyd.  I have no idea, Senator Hart. I am not at all familiar with the traffic figures.  Our experience would lead us to believe that, as of March 8, 1965, there is no possibility  of a subsidy-free operation in this country.

We fully expect that not only will these carriers presently certificated will be able to operate subsidy-free by the end of 1970, but we think that the advances due to their operations will make it possible to operate in many other metropolitan areas without subsidy.

Senator Hart. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Lausche. I would like to have placed in the record a tabulation dealing separately with New York and Los Angeles, showing the different runs that they have, the mileage of the run, the rate of fare, and the percentage of the subsidy provided by the Government for each particular run. 

Mr. Boyd. All right, sir. We will have to do that percentage by averages.

Senator Lausche. Let's say Los Angeles has 10 runs. Can't you give each one separately? 

Mr. Boyd. We can give the fare separately, but not the subsidy. We will have to do that on an averaging basis.