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HELICOPTER AIR SERVICE PROGRAM                          73

there is the possibility to exploit that need, then we believe they will make out.

Senator LAUSCHE. Mr. Beeks would like to ask you a question or two. He is counsel for this subcommittee.

MR. BEEKS. You and Mr. Boyd are at odds on the interpretation of section 406. How do you propose that the committee resolve this? 
Should we go into litigation and drag it out 3 or 4 years, or should this committee resolve it. Are you prepared to submit prospective legislation?

Mr. GILES. I am not convinced that there is a conflict that needs to be resolved. The only time you would have that precise question presented would be if the CAB, in a proper proceeding, and on the record, determined that the subsidy should continue to be paid for a period of time, and at the same time the Congress did not appropriate that money.
I am not prepared to assume at the moment that the CAB is going to grant the petitions of these lines. I hope———

Senator LAUSCHE. Do you say that in spite of what was said here this morning by Mr. Boyd?

Mr. GILES. I was a little bit surprised that Mr. Boyd spoke as explicitly as he did about the Board's views, but I am going to assume, Mr. Chairman, that the hearing examiner of the Board will hear all sides of this matter and will make a decision on the record, notwithstanding the views expressed by the chairman.

Senator LAUSCHE. Were you in the room when he testified?

Mr. GILES. Yes, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. Can you describe to me what your reaction was?

Mr. GILES. I can understand———

Senator LAUSCHE. You are in the position of a lawyer who is presenting a case to a court, and you heard the judge who is to decide your cause in advance make a declaration that you were all wrong.

Mr. GILES. Mr. Chairman, I am going to assume that the CAB, as a fine Federal agency, will in the showdown administer its affairs properly.

Senator LAUSCHE. I think it will, too.

Mr. GILES. I would observe that the petitioning carriers would certainly have ground to raise a question if the chairman had indicated exactly the contrary conclusion, that is, if he had said he didn't think these petitions should be granted. I believe they would have the basis for some complaint.

Mr. BEEKS. Let's assume that the carriers go to the court of claims and file, because Congress has not appropriated money. This can take 3 or 4 years. Wouldn't it be better for this committee, if the committee decided as a matter of policy that we should, to clarify section 406 now?

Mr. GILES. I think we would be prepared to support an amendment to the present law to make it clear that where Congress has not appropriated the money there would be no legal obligation on the part of the Government to pay. Yes, sir, we would be prepared to support that.

Mr. BEEKS. Under the guaranteed loan program, is there going to be any problem there?

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