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HELICOPTER AIR SERVICE PROGRAM     131

thousand miles - 970 or 980 - and takeoff over a 50-foot obstacle from a 200-foot landing court.

Senator MONRONEY. 200 feet. That would be less than an acre.

Mr. THAYER. It is a little less than an acre.

Senator MONRONEY. And over a 50-foot obstacle.

Mr. THAYER. Over a 50-foot obstacle. This is a standard day with no wind conditions.

Senator MONRONEY. Is this the military or commercial version that you show here?

Mr. THAYER. This is the military version.

Senator MONRONEY. The commercial version would be much the same exterior but with refinements interior, I assume?

Mr. THAYER. You can go about as far as you want in that regard, Senator.

Senator MONRONEY. With your plug you could get 9 feet, I think you said, additional, which would bring you up from about 42 to 52 passengers.

Mr. THAYER. It would bring us up from 40 to 52, or, we think, we could actually, by compressing the sail arrangement, with a little different seat arrangement, go beyond the 52 and come closer to 60 passengers.

Senator MONRONEY. You haven't yet had any projections on the economic operating characteristics for a commercial version, have you?

Mr. THAYER. No, sir. One of the reasons, Mr. Keith Kahle is dominating our organization at this stage of the game. We have never been in the commercial airline business. We have asked Keith to help us conduct a very extensive study over the next several months, and try to determine first of all the probably commercial configuration.

Once that is determined, we can determine the economics of the airplane reasonably well insofar as cost per seat mile is concerned, or just operating costs from one point to another. We can determine the maintenance costs, which of course are part of operating costs. We intend to take actual route structures that are being flown by the airlines, selectively, and with their help and with Keith Kahle's help, I expect that we can come up with a total operating cost, cost per seat mile under various realistic assumptions, which will have to be something meaningful to the operator, somethign whereby he can gage the economics of the airplane by himself from is own personal standpoint.

Senator MONRONEY. You would have to take a route structure. May I pass this down to you, Mr. Kahle. This is the route structure of the Los Angeles Airways. You might look at it. I think there is only one mileage figure identified, that is the 63-mile hop which probably would be about perhaps the minimum which you would want to accept in your commuting distance.

Mr. THAYER. I think you will find that when you get below 50 to 75 miles, it is tough to compete with the helicopter. Certainly if you get below 50 miles I don't think the helicopter can be beat, primarily because a large fraction of the helicopter's time under 50 miles is hover time required, and no one has found a way yet to beat the efficiency of a helicopter where large amounts of hover time are required.

Senator MONRONEY. I was thinking not of hover time, but of using an airport small enough to allow you to make a STOL of 250 or 350 feet run to pick up and discharge.