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Gottlieb, DeCooney. I knew these people. I used to hang around the bars, and see the bars. I used to get drunk with them. I used to argue with them. We used to chase the same women sometimes. They were very profound men. They ARE profound men. They are very articulate man. They are people who have chosen a past ideologically which I disagree with. It is not the past that I would choose to believe and think is going to lead into a glorious Renaissance of American cul-ture, or is it going to lead into uplifting culture, uplifting and enriching mankind. I think it only reaches a few people, and most of these people are middle class, bourgeois, empty meaningless people, who feed on Rauschenberg, on a Jim Deane, on a Larry Rivers and create something of society and exhibit a name...an in-group. You see, they create something false, artificial, because nothing is lost they believe. Other parts of their life become meaningless. They need something. Like the Jet Set, all this jazz that evolves out of America. The artists are not responsible for it. They become the sort of nice pidgeons which they can show off and flock around and make themselves to be in, in-the-know, so to speak, and to show off to their friends and talk and develop all the jargon these non-painters who hang around and contribute to the glorification of a Larry Rivers or Rauschenberg, and Andy Woolhall and these guys. They contribute to their glorification

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