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else. Barry is [[strikethrough]] just such [[/strikethrough]] a beautiful pivotal example [[strikethrough]] because of what he did [[/strikethrough]], first he cleared the surface, then he went around the edges, then he broke [[strikethrough]] it up [[/strikethrough]] the surface into [[strikethrough]] little things [[/strikethrough]] separate fragments; [[strikethrough]] and [[/strikethrough]] then [[strikethrough]] it became the thread[/strikethrough]] he worked with nylon string and [[strikethrough]] the thread [[/strikethrough]] it disappeared into [[strikethrough]] the [[/strikethrough]] radiation magnetic fields, and then the [[strikethrough]] carry-aways [[/strikethrough]] carrier-waves, and then [[strikethrough]] that disappeared into [[/strikethrough]] the gases, and then [[strikethrough]] it was [[/strikethrough]] the psychic series. [[strikethrough]] There is really a beautiful progression from this kind of thing [[/strikethrough]] They all deal with physical energy, even when invisible. 

UM: [[strikethrough]] It is also a progression in the sense that he has struggled against any object. [[/strikethrough]] He really refused the object. [[strikethrough]] He wants to eradicate the object. [[/strikethrough]] But [[strikethrough]] even if the object is eradicated, [[/strikethrough]] even if he works with mental energy only, there's still a carrier, and that's the human brain. So [[strikethrough]] what really happens is that [[/strikethrough]] you cannot really avoid the object. 

LL: [[strikethrough]] Well, I don't know if that's and object. It depends on what... I think [[/strikethrough]] A lot of this [[strikethrough]] gets very confused with [[/strikethrough]] this business about object and not object [[?]] people say[[strikethrough]]ing[[/strikethrough]] "it's still an object," or"he's finally got past the object," or something. It really isn't a matter of how much [[strikethrough]] physical can weight? his head [[/strikethrough]] physiceism a work has, but [[strikethrough]] it's more a question [[/strikethrough]] of what [[strikethrough]] he's [[/strikethrough]] [[?]] doing with it.  

UM:  Well, the way I look at [[strikethrough]] ti [[/strikethrough]] it's also a matter of/ what is the direction of the endeavor, but I think it is undoubtedly ver/y obvious that the concern with the object is the fundamental of what has been going on in the last few years. That was the same with the minimalists, that was the same with the [[?]] Pop, and I think that is the same with the conceptual artists.

LL:  But [[strikethrough]] I think [[/strikethrough]] it's been the same since Mon[[d?]]ian. [[strikethrough]] I think, though,[[/strikethrough]] Probably it's more typical of the first half of the 20th century,