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dance, n a certain sense, pantomine, perhaps more than anything else.

LL: I don;t think it's so much the visual arts influencing any of those things, but the preoccupations of a lot of visual artists now with performance media, like Nauman, and even Serra's film which he prefers not keep entirely separate, but it's still related to his work seem to be, and this has been said at various time, concerned with real time....

UM: One group who did that was Fluxus? [[strikethrough]] or Plexus? [[/strikethrough]] They did that in 1961. Noone was quite aware of that. They were the first ones to bring out films as early as 1961.

LL: But it's still Kaprow who really did it first. The artists got into it from an interesting ethereal form, and then realizing tht they could do the same thing. Certainly Warhol did it before.

UM: Oh yes, he's very important in the context of this anthology he doesn't fit at all, but Oldenburg does fit.

LL: Why does Oldenburg fit?

UM: Oldenburg fits quite well, because he has done several works which are real anti-art works, very much in the Dadaist vein. Now we are going on. Lucy, you have worked for many years wih the so-called art word. Don't you think that the impact of what is happening now, with conceptual and with what I always call the other art, like the other culture, when the impact is going to hit the so-called art world, the galleries, the museums, what changes do you envisage? [[/strikethrough]]