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Transcription: [00:13:20]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
It's often a common practice--
[00:13:22]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
[[Crosstalk]] Mm hm! Sure!
[00:13:24]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
To change, um, the roles in Hollywood films.

[00:13:26]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Mm hm.
[00:13:28]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Uh, you mentioned, and I'd like to go back,

[00:13:30]
in connection with this, um, representation in color,
[00:13:36]

you mentioned earlier in terms of shooting the Soundies.
{SILENCE}
oundies,
[00:13:40]
and the band, and the blue shirts, um,
[00:13:45]
do you suppose that the--
[00:13:49]
you sent me, you saw the white shirt
[00:13:53]
on dark-skinned performers,
[00:13:59]
and most of them, um,
[00:14:02]
let me put it this way--
[00:14:04]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
May I-- may I interrupt you and say this to you,
[00:14:07]
they used them on white people too, in those days.
[00:14:10]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Okay, well, that answers it. Because I--
[00:14:11]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
It was a technical thing that had to do with the reflection,
[00:14:19]
I think, of the white on the black and white film.
[00:14:24]
I believe I'm describing that correctly.
[00:14:26]
I think that they used the blue shirts for the people in the orchestra,
[00:14:30]
and I think even where women's dresses were concerned,
[00:14:37]
they used softer tones like blue or yellow or something because the white had too much flare.
[00:14:43]
I could be wrong but I think that was a technical thing that had nothing to do with skin color.
[00:14:50]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Mh hm. Uh, the reason I mentioned it, because,
[00:14:55]
I mean Hollywood was notorious for the use of special lights on Blacks for comic effect,
[00:15:04]
and what those lights did was highlight the white of the eyes,
[00:15:10]
the color of the teeth and so on against dark skin.
[00:15:13]
And I was just curious if in the Soundies that you had mentioned,

[00:15:20]
if Mr. Alexander for instance was very much aware of that
[00:15:26]
and that the wearing of white shirts by dark-skinned performers
[00:15:32]
on the kind of film stock which was available,
[00:15:35]
which was not made for black skin, that,
[00:15:40]
I mean if his awareness of that, that the musicians would have looked better,
[00:15:45]
had more lifelike in terms of their color, if they were not wearing a bright white shirt which would detract from--
[00:15:52]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
No, no. In fact, I think that the decision
[00:15:58]
to have them wear the colored shirts was the decision of the film director,
[00:16:03]
I don't think it was Mr. Alexander's decision at all,
[00:16:08]
I think it was the director who said "You've got to have those men in blue shirts
[00:16:12]
and you've got to have those women in soft colors, not in white,
[00:16:17]
because you'll get a better tone in your black and white film".
[00:16:23]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Were you aware of how the white crews were
[00:16:34]
hired on the set that--
[00:16:38]
of Mr. Alexander's productions, that-- Did he choose--
[00:16:45]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Well, Mr. Alexander hired them, uh,
[00:16:50]
he usually, he hired the directors through a personal contact of one kind or another,
[00:16:55]
or recommendation from the laboratory.
[00:17:00]
It might have been, it might have suggested somebody to him
[00:17:07]
when he first came in, started working, and then naturally as you do in any business,
[00:17:11]
as he had more and more experience, he had more and more contacts.
[00:17:15]
And then the director very frequently would suggest people to, uh,
[00:17:23]
for the crew, other people that were [[??]] I guess sometimes they were their friends,
[00:17:28]
or sometimes they were people that they knew they had worked with, and, uh,
[00:17:33]
and as I said Bill had worked with the All-American News, he knew some of the cameramen
[00:17:40]
who would come to Washington from New York, and then he met them times when he was on location in the field,
[00:17:47]
and so [[??]] he had had some contacts. And just one thing led to another.
[00:17:51]
And then of course on occasion, we had to go directly to the union
[00:17:57]
to get someone that could fill the role that we didn't have a personal contact with someone.
[00:18:03]
Or the director didn't. But that was another one.
[00:18:08]
And of course as far as I know, all of the, uh,
[00:18:15]
crew, that we had to use were all white,
[00:18:21]
because there were no blacks in the industry as far as I know at that time.
[00:18:26]
None.
[00:18:29]
Now there may have been some in California, but as far as I know in New York there were none.
[00:18:33]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
And you're talking about as late as the mid-50's.
[00:18:37]

{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
No. I'm talking 1946 to 1950.
[00:18:43]
'Cause I left the field in '50.
[00:18:45]

{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
1950.
[00:18:46]

{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Mm hmm.
[00:18:48]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
I wonder if you would talk a little bit, if you're familiar with, um,
[00:18:53]
talk a little bit about Oscar Micheaux who was a
[00:18:58]
producer, director, and writer during--
[00:19:03]
this was at the tail end of his career, almost, by the time you came into filmmaking--
[00:19:10]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
I didn't have any kind of personal contact with Mr. Micheaux ever, at any time,
[00:19:15]
nor did I ever meet him or even see him in New York at the time I came here.
[00:19:22]
I remember Mr. Micheax's films from the time that I was in high school and college,
[00:19:28]
and they would be shown in Baltimore, where I lived and worked.
[00:19:33]
And uh, I remember that they were shown at the Black theaters at that time,
[00:19:43]
I think there were about five Black theaters in the Negro sections of Baltimore.
[00:19:55]
There was one in east Baltimore, where there was what would now be referred to a Black ghetto,
[00:20:01]
and there were four that I remember in northwest Baltimore, where I lived, which would have been the other--
[00:20:11]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
So, the middle class community?
[00:20:13]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Well, no, it was the whole gamut, from middle class right down to the poverty-stricken.
[00:20:20]
And when they would book a film of Mr. Micheaux's,
[00:20:27]
there was a newspaper there that was read by practically everyone in the Black community called The Afro-American.
[00:20:34]
It was a weekly paper and it had a theatrical page,
[00:20:42]
which there were advertisements for coming attractions, both white and Black films,
[00:20:49]
and there were often little comments by some of their staff writers about the films
[00:20:56]
or clips taken from material sent out by the studios and the distributors, and they may quote that on the p--
[00:21:05]
on the theatrical page, [[??]] page, and when Micheaux's films would come,
[00:21:10]
because Black films were so few and far between,
[00:21:14]
they would carry a large ad saying "all-Black film by--" What was his first name?
[00:21:23]

{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Oscar.
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
"Oscar Micheaux",
[00:21:25]
and the name got to be familiar, I think, with the Black community.
[00:21:30]
Then in case there were people in the community who didn't buy The Afro-American,
[00:21:38]
or didn't read it or couldn't afford it,
[00:21:41]
the local theater which was showing the film would send out handbills.
[00:21:47]
They would have young boys, 15 or 16 years old, go out with little, oh, four by--
[00:21:55]
maybe eight by ten sheet, with a very badly printed reproduction from one of the scenes from [[??]],
[00:22:06]
terrible printing, but it would give the name of the theater,
[00:22:09]
the dates it was playing, and occasionally they would name a star in the picture,
[00:22:13]
but it would have "Oscar Micheaux presents an all-Black film", the title, and the dates that--
[00:22:21]
and these would be distributed from door to door!
[00:22:25]
And sometimes the little children would collect them.
[00:22:28]
People who lived in the houses could see 'em running around the street with a handbill,
[00:22:33]
because they were proud! This was something they were very proud of.
[00:22:37]
But as far as the films themselves are concerned, I don't remember the names of any of Micheaux's films,
[00:22:45]
I remember that [[??]] the quality was only fair,
[00:22:51]
the films themselves were very very grating,
[00:22:55]
plus the, um, projection in many of those theaters was poor also,
[00:23:00]
so even if the film had been of a better quality,
[00:23:04]
those little theaters, little movie houses
[00:23:07]
in the Black neighborhoods probably had the cheapest kind of projector that there was.
[00:23:13]
Sometimes the film would break[[??]] in the middle of a film,
[00:23:17]
and you'd have to turn the lights on and you'd have to wait while the projectionist spliced his film together.
[00:23:26]
But um, it was something that the Black community appreciated,
[00:23:33]
and they looked forward to.
[00:23:35]
And I'll tell you another thing, I mentioned something, a peculiar phenomenon,
[00:23:39]
a little while ago and then I took it back, there was a peculiar phenomenon about Black films
[00:23:45]
regardless of Mr. Micheaux or who produced it,
[00:23:48]
is that Black audiences used to laugh at most of the scenes in the film.
[00:23:54]
Only once in a while, if some very dramatic scene
[00:24:02]
of a death or something, would they be quiet.
[00:24:07]
But they laughed at the most inappropriate places.
[00:24:12]
But they enjoyed it!
[00:24:14]
But they seemed to get some pleasure at making fun of themselves.
[00:24:21]
Laughing at themselves.
[00:24:24]
And I think that that sometimes happens today, with Black films.
[00:24:30]
Not to the extent it used to. But--
[00:24:33]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
You mean--
[00:24:34]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
To [[??]] extent--
[00:24:35]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
You mean by "laughing at themselves",
[00:24:39]
that Black audiences very often have a tendency very often to talk through a movie?
[00:24:44]
It's-- they become involved with what's going on in the scene--
[00:24:47]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
That happened too, but I wasn't speaking about that,
[00:24:50]
that is another thing that happens. They do do that.
[00:24:54]
They do that with stage productions as well as with movies.
[00:24:57]
Of course, it's a little more understandable with a stage production, but they do that, they did that in movies also.
[00:25:03]
But I mean there were so many scenes where they just became hysterical with laughter,
[00:25:09]
and it was inappropriate for what was being shown on the screen!
[00:25:13]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Why do you suppose they were?
[00:25:15]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
I think they was just something psychological in it where they just felt that,
[00:25:21]
you know, after all, "this Black man up on the screen, he can't really be serious,
[00:25:25]
he really isn't going to dance his way to Broadway, ha ha ha ha ha ha!
[00:25:30]
He'll never make it, ha ha!" Because this was a sort of philosophy
[00:25:34]
which comes from the brainwashing that the white man did on the Black man.
[00:25:40]
From slavery times right on through. In some instances, I believe it occurs now.
[00:25:46]
Again, this is my personal opinion.
[00:25:51]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
I want you to explore that point just a little bit further.
[00:25:54]
Because there are references to white audiences
[00:26:02]
looking at, um, Black films, particularly during the--
[00:26:09]
uh, looking at Oscar Micheaux films or some of the earlier films,
[00:26:12]
and making the comment in print how funny that, uh,
[00:26:21]
there are Blacks acting like white people on the screen, and that--
[00:26:26]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
When you say this has appeared in print, you mean in newspaper reports in the media?
[00:26:30]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Mmh, yeah--
[00:26:32]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Well I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to believe[[??]] with that, that fact.
[00:26:36]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
I meant, I meant the connection between the white critics
[00:26:42]
or white audiences that saw some of the same films,
[00:26:47]
saw the characters on the screen, if they were, you know, being dramatic and whatnot,
[00:26:53]
as, as funny whether they were funny or not.
[00:26:55]
Because they perceived that the Blacks on the screen were pretending,
[00:27:01]
they were acting like white people.
[00:27:03]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Well I don't think that that was the concept the Black audiences had.
[00:27:08]
I think that it was just that to them,
[00:27:16]
to them it was just a little strange to see their own kind--
[00:27:22]
Maybe that's the gist of it!
[00:27:24]
It could be, I've never contemplated that, but it could be that there's something of that in there.
[00:27:30]
I never thought about it.
[00:27:32]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
When you mention the psychological--
[00:27:34]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Yeah, I often, I often wondered, why are people laughing at this?
[00:27:40]
And maybe that's, maybe that's what was going through the minds of the Black audiences.
[00:27:46]
I've never thought about that.
[00:27:49]
To me it didn't seem strange, that Black people could do the same things white people--
[00:27:54]
people are people, as far as I'm concerned! I was brought up with that concept,
[00:27:58]
in my home and in my schooling and various influences I had in my life.
[00:28:02]
Maybe that's true. It's an interesting point.
[00:28:08]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
You say you don't remember any of Oscar Micheaux's films, uh--
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"} [[Crosstalk]]
No, I don't remember. I don't remember any of them.
[00:28:16]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Well let me ask you another question.
[00:28:19]
At the time you, by the time you became involved in film, Oscar Micheaux produced his last picture.
[00:28:28]
It was in 1948, '49--
[00:28:32]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
What was the name of it, do you remember?
[00:28:34]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
"The Betrayal". And it was, as were most of Micheaux's films,
[00:28:42]
intended for commercial theaters, it was shot on 35,
[00:28:46]
and he opened very briefly, on--
[00:28:49]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Shot in 35?
[00:28:50]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
In 35 millimeter, yes.
[00:28:52]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Oh, 35 millimeter, oh. Okay.
[00:28:55]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Which is for commercial, for commercial housing[[??]]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
[[??]]
[00:28:59]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
The film--
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
I never shot in anything but 35,
[00:29:03]
but I do recall now that you mention it, that there was some producers
[00:29:09]
who shot at 8 millimeter and blew it up to 35
[00:29:13]
if they could get commercial of it, did you know that?
[00:29:16]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
In 8 millimeter or 16 millimeter?
[00:29:18]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
16 millimeter, I'm sorry, 16 millimeter.
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's a--
[00:29:21]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Yes. Yes. Yes.
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
That's, that was not uncommon.
[00:29:24]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
We never did that.
[00:29:25]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
I only-- I only use the reference to 35 because it was intended for the commercial theaters.
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Yes. Of course.
[00:29:33]

{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
But this film which Oscar Micheaux made in 1948,
[00:29:38]
his last film, called "Betrayal", opened on Broadway and only lasted a week,
[00:29:44]
and then the film was pulled and it has subsequently just disappeared.
[00:29:48]
Micheaux died in 1951.
[00:29:51]
And no trace of this film has been found so far.
[00:29:57]
One of the comments about that particular film, why it did not do well,
[00:30:04]
had to do with the subject matter.
[00:30:08]
And again, there was reported to be a scene in the movie
[00:30:16]
that deals with passing and interracial relationships.
[00:30:22]
And that may have been one of the reasons why the film was pulled, it did not do well.
[00:30:28]
But it's interesting that the film was-- having opened on Broadway--
[00:30:34]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
It didn't play the Black houses at all?
[00:30:37]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
We, we have no record of the film ever having got beyond that one theater.
[00:30:42]
And I was just curious if you might have known something--
[00:30:46]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Nothing at all.
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
About that film or--
[00:30:48]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
Nothing at all.
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
Have heard anything at all about it during the period.
[00:30:51]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
No, no. If I did I don't recall, I'm sorry to say.
[00:30:54]
Just vaguely, just vaguely it seems to me I saw it.
[00:30:58]
But I can't remember what it was about.
[00:31:03]
I think that I saw it, because I made it my business to see things produced by white producers
[00:31:10]
as well as Black producers that came out around that time.
[00:31:15]
So I probably saw it but I just don't remember, unfortunately.
[00:31:22]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
That raises another question about the subject areas, much like the, um,
[00:31:30]
"The Klansman" feel about racism, which was not popular or acceptable by mainstream audiences,
[00:31:38]
that this film, "The Betrayal", also had elements in it that were not popular or acceptable by mainstream audiences.
[00:31:49]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
I wouldn't say that "The Klansman" is not acceptable by mainstream, you know it shows frequent-- occasionally on TV.
[00:31:57]
It's accepted, it's accepted by mainstream audiences
[00:32:03]
but not to the extent that--
[00:32:09]
well I take that, let me say. But it's somewhat controversial.
[00:32:13]
But is it accepted by mainstream audiences, I think that should be said.
[00:32:19]
Of course, among all the things that helps to make it accessible are the stars they had in there
[00:32:25]
who were box office at the time of the film was shot.
[00:32:30]
Although the material in it is somewhat controversial,
[00:32:34]
but it was certainly accepted by mainstream audiences.
[00:32:39]
{SPEAKER name="Pearl Bowser"}
But often what happens between--
[00:32:44]
{SPEAKER name="Harryette Miller Barton"}
But in 19-- remember though, the difference, though, I forget what year Bill produced that film,
[00:32:49]
I think it was about '72 or '73, something like that, maybe '75,
[00:32:55]
there's a lot of difference between that and '48.
[00:32:57]
The tides had swung over.
[00:33:00]
For instance, during that period in which we produced films here in New York,
[00:33:05]
although we had only a limited number of feature-length films,
[00:33:10]
we didn't have, we didn't dare do anything which showed--
[00:33:17]
[[loud cars in background]]
[00:33:22]
showed an intimate relationship between Black men and white women,
[00:33:28]
or Black women and white men. We didn't dare touch that subject, because it was much too controversial at that time.
[00:33:35]
Much too much.
[00:33:38]
Which, you know, could have killed the entire production as apparently happened with Mr. Micheaux's picture.
[00:33:44]
The world wasn't ready for it at that time.

Transcription Notes:
---------- Reopened for Editing 2023-04-19 17:37:17 -[00:29:13] removed [[??]] after "commerical of it". It was quick mutter, not a word.