Peenemünde Interviews Project: Konrad D. Dannenberg 11/7/1989 (Tape 2 of 2) B
Web Video Text Tracks Format (WebVTT)
WEBVTT
00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:09.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: -- of Rees. He was quite a bit involved in all these political decisions.
00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:21.000
He was von Braun's deputy and he was -- normally kept very well informed about what von Braun, even in a separate meeting where Rees was not present -- but he passed on this kind of information very well.
00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:28.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: OK, I just want to identify. This is Tape 2 Side 2. Interview with Konrad Dannenberg.
00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:38.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Um, do you remember the uh, the Zanssen affair? At all? Where Zanssen was --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: What specifically do you -- mean ?
00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:46.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Ah, Zanssen was removed as commander, base commander at Peenemünde in May '43.
00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:53.000
And the SS was behind that.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: I see, no I hadn't even heard about that. That's new to me.
00:00:53.000 --> 00:01:02.000
I knew that Zanssen had to go, but I don't know the details there. Again, that was a political decision, that was way over my level.
00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:12.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Yeah, the accusation was that Zanssen was connected to some oppositional Catholic priests and some other charges. It seems basically like a frame-up.
00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:21.000
And one of the, the -- did you ever know Lieutenant Colonel Stegmaier?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Ja.
00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:25.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: By the way, do you know what his first name is? Because I haven't seen it anywhere on the record.
00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:36.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: I think it's Heinz, but I'm not really sure. Again, Rees would be a good source and he has a fantastic memory.
00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Uh, do you remember anything about him?
00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:45.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Well, of course he was in charge of the Peenemünde operations, while Dornberger was very often away.
00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:55.000
I had a number of meetings with him because, well it again was involving getting the V-2 ready to go; getting the drawings out.
00:01:55.000 --> 00:02:07.000
And I always thought very highly of him. He was not the kind of person as von Braun or [[Doc ??]] Dornberger was. So he was a good administrator. But he was in that sense not a leader.
00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:10.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Can you describe him?
00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:16.000
-- physically and uh, personality-wise? Say more about Stegmaier?
00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:28.000
-- 'cause I don't even have a good picture of what he was - who he was - what he looked like.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: He was an average person. Uh, I might even have a picture of him. Shall I look?
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:33.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Uh, yeah maybe after --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: At the end of the tape?
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Yeah, the end of the interview.
00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:39.179
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Ja, I might have a picture of him. He was really in a way an average person. He was wearing glasses --
00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:51.000
Konrad Dannenberg: I even think [[kremas ??]] you know the one without the bows? That you just-
Michael Neufeld: Stick on your the end of your-
Konrad Dannenberg: Stick on your nose.
Konrad Dannenberg: I think, I'm not too sure about that. Maybe the picture will show it.
00:02:51.000 --> 00:03:02.000
Konrad Dannenberg: He was a pretty nice and pleasant fellow. He was not as tough as [[Zansen. Zansen ??]] was a pretty tough - he really showed you he was a commander when he was up in Peenemunde.
00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:12.000
Konrad Dannenberg: And many people were mad at him, and maybe that's another reason that they finally removed him.
Michael Neufeld: So you - so there were a lot of people who were unhappy with [[Zansen ??]]
Konrad Dannenberg: Ja.
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:20.000
Konrad Dannenberg: He was a typical military commander, ja? He made up his mind - he didn't necessarily talk to all the people before he made his decision.
00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:28.000
Konrad Dannenberg: He made the decision on the basis of his information, and boy you better follow it up with whatever he ordered.
00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:39.000
Konrad Dannenberg: So for that reason he was not too popular. I personally have nothing against him. In fact I visited him once, or I met him once after the war
00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:45.000
Konrad Dannenberg: in - in the Bremen area. He lives in the Bremen area right now.
Michael Neufeld: Well he actually died some years ago. I -
00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:55.000
[[Cross talk]]
Konrad Dannenberg: He died some-
Michael Neufeld: Well it's sure a coincidence by - I - by rather much of an accident when I was in Hamburg in August. I was introduced to his daughters.
00:03:55.000 --> 00:04:05.000
Konrad Dannenberg: I see.
Michael Neufeld: I had, I was at - and I spent an evening with the daughters - the two daughters of [[Zansen ??]] and their husbands and had a long discussion about these issues and that's still an issue to them
00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:15.000
Konrad Dannenberg: Ja, well they were of the opinion that he was booted out by the S.S.?
Michael Neufeld: Well, I have documents which show, in fact the S.S.,
00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:26.000
Michael Neufeld: the Gestapo sort of framed him up. And I also have a documents that show Stigmeir was the man behind a lot of it.
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:39.000
Konrad Dannenberg: Ja? Really?
Michael Neufeld: He, he - Stigmeir had the highest contacts with the S.S. leadership. Through - through [[Gottloberger ??]]
Konrad Dannenberg: Maybe that was the reasons was put in charge there.
00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:50.000
Konrad Dannenberg: Due to his S.S. contacts.
Michael Neufeld: But you have no knowledge of that whatsoever?
Konrad Dannenberg: No, I - neither of the [[Zansen ??]] affair nor that Stigmeir was involved in this area.
00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:02.000
Konrad Dannenberg: As I said, I always thought - well not as a big leader, but as otherwise- [[Cross talk]]
Michael Neufeld: As a competent-
Konrad Dannenberg: but maybe a highly of him.
Michael Neufeld: So most people liked Stigmeir, in terms of -
00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:11.000
Konrad Dannenberg: I think most people did, ja. More than Zansen.
Michael Neufeld: 'Cause that's interesting, Rudolph said that he had terrible disagreements with Stigmeir.
00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:21.000
Konrad Dannenberg: Ja.
Michael Neufeld: But that was over [[Fuzookserianwerk ??]] . That he didn't get along with him. So I have no reading, you know I'm only getting a few opinions so far.
00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:31.000
Michael Neufeld: Obviously you just get along with some people and don't get along with other people, and it's often just quite coincidental.
Konrad Dannenberg: How did Rudolph feel about [[Zansan ??]]? Did you talk to him about-
00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:38.000
Michael Neufeld: I think he was - I think he was friendly with [[Zansen ??]], but I don't remember real well what he said about it.
00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:47.000
Michael Neufeld: But uh, but he didn't get along with Stigmeir.
Konrad Dannenberg: Well I'm a bit surprised. Stigmeir was normally fairly easy to get along with.
00:05:47.000 --> 00:06:00.000
Konrad Dannenberg: But of course there may have been some very basic differences in the Nachtfall question. And maybe Stigmeir even had his orders, and he had to pass us all us on to Rudolph,
00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:10.000
Konrad Dannenberg: and Rudolph didn't like the orders. So I can see that these things can develop.
Michael Neufeld: Right, I mean of course the whole problem going into production was a real, real controversial
00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:24.000
Michael Neufeld: - real controversial situation. So, as far as S.S. was concerned, all you knew about it was that there was something going on. [[Kamler ??]] of course came into the picture in,
00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:38.000
Michael Neufeld: after the air raid as the man responsible for building the Mittelwerk and using the prisoners.
Konrad Dannenberg: An again, he was so high up in the hierarchy I had no contact with him at all.
00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:51.000
Konrad Dannenberg: I knew about him of course, ja, but I never talked to him. I don't recall a single meeting I had with him. And, so I really have no personal judgement.
00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:59.349
Michael Neufeld: So as - so he was not somebody that you met at meetings, or any- [[Cross talk]]
Konrad Dannenberg: No, no.
Michael Neufeld: -later on.
00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:10.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: I met Sawatzki fairly frequently whenever I went to Mittelwerke. He was normally the one to complain that he didn't have all the drawings.
00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:16.000
So then I had to find the drawings and take them to him. So I had a pretty good contact with him.
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:28.000
But that was about the top level that I had my contacts with. Rudolph probably had many more contacts with -- he may even have had some contacts with Kammler and people like that.
00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:33.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: I -- I imagine. I didn't ask him about it. Um.
00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:51.000
But, uhh -- so it -- I mean officially, of course, Kammler sort of gradually gathered all these various strings together, by the end of '44, and was officially over you and everybody else.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Ja.
00:07:51.000 --> 00:08:01.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: You didn't notice much actual presence of SS and so forth? I know that [[crosstalk]] the facility was never SS --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Well, of course, the push was always on, ja?
00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:08.000
There was always a lot of pressure, and as you indicated earlier, they wanted to build large, large numbers of V-2s.
00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:16.000
And they couldn't even use them, ja? We built many more than they finally could launch.
00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:29.000
And uh -- Well I certainly felt the pressure, ja? Also getting the drawings out. Of course, many of these orders came from Kammler.
00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:40.000
But I didn't get the pressure direct from him, I got it through people like Rudolph, and like Sawatzki, and people who were more on the working level.
00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:50.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Right. Um -- Do you remember when the -- uh -- facility was converted into a private company?
00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:59.000
-- that Peenemünde was converted as-- as Elektro--
KONRAD DANNENBERG: -- into Elektromechanischewerke ?
MICHAEL NEUFELD: -- as really a government-owned company.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: I remember that it happened, but I don't remember the date.
00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:04.000
Do you have the date?
MICHAEL NEUFELD: August the 1st, 1944.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: '44, that late?
00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:14.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: August '44. It came immediately after the -- the coup against, uhh, immediately after the assassination attempt against Hitler.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: I see.
00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:24.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Are they connected somehow?
MICHAEL NEUFELD: I, I think so. I don't know if anyone has the evidence yet, but it appears that -- pretty clear that --
00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:34.000
-- the Army, of course, was humiliated by that. After that, the army was seen as the enemy --
00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:45.000
-- by many people in the party and the SS. And, in order to keep Peenemünde from being taken over directly by the SS --
00:09:45.000 --> 00:10:03.000
-- I think this is -- I don't know if the exact proof is out there yet -- Speer was behind convincing somebody to make it into a civilian corporation owned by the government.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Ja, it sounds logical. I hadn't heard it.
00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:04.656
[[Telephone ringing]]
KONRAD DANNENBERG: It's a new story for me.
00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:14.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: But from the practical -- from the standpoint of what you know, did it -- did it make much difference when you changed labels from --
00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:24.000
-- you know, an Army --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Actually, not an awful lot. Of course our letterhead paper had to be changed. But that was more or less it.
00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:32.000
The operation was the same. The bosses at Peenemünde stayed the same. Of course we had an extra boss, Mr. Storch --
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:37.000
-- but otherwise it was not really a great difference.
00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:44.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Did it make any difference in terms of converting a status of people from civil service to--
00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:55.000
-- I mean, did your salaries change, or anything like that? Do you recall any difference that it made, like that?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: I certainly don't recall it. On the other hand, money was of secondary importance at that time.
00:10:55.000 --> 00:11:03.000
You needed cigarettes and eggs in order to really buy something. You needed some money to make it legal, but we had plenty of money.
00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:09.000
So money was not the big issue, and I don't really recall if my salary, my pay was changed.
00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:18.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Ration coupons were the --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Right. Ja.
MICHAEL NEUFELD: -- were the important things, not how much money you had in your pocket, whether you had access to goods.
00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:32.000
In that last year or so, at Peenemünde, was there a deterioration of conditions? A noticeable -- due to shortages of materials ?
00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:45.000
Due to shortages of food, dispersion, whatever?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Well of course, particular materials for the V-2 production, ja? I mentioned earlier we had to make many design changes in order to accommodate the new materials.
00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:54.000
The food, of course, was during the war, always short. So you never had really all the food you would like to eat.
00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:04.000
Now in Peenemünde we probably were better off than most people all over Germany, because the fishermen in Peenemünde could still go out to sea and catch some fish.
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:11.000
And even some eel, and eel were very desired because they were fat. You probably -- I don't know if you have ever eaten eel.
00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:22.000
Most people resent it even, and don't like it. But in those days we really liked to get a good piece of eel. Real fat eel. So in that sense we were not too bad off.
00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:31.000
And if we had met some of our commitments, like delivering drawings, having tests done on time, we even got some extra booze rations.
00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:41.000
So we were normally not too short in booze. And I worked with Mr. Heller, who actually was my first boss at Peenemünde.
00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:52.000
And he was a chemist. And he knew how to take our ethyl alcohol and to make it into pure alcohol so he could make all the booze you could think of.
00:12:52.000 --> 00:13:00.000
And we normally made Agri-col, or something like that. Ja, we added a lot of taste to it, and so we had plenty of booze all the time.
00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:10.000
So in that sense we were not too bad off in Peenemünde. It was probably much worse all over the rest of Germany.
00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:21.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: What was the effect of the air raids that, that you went through there? Of course, the first one is well known - the first major air raid.
00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:32.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Mhmm (Agree). And that's really the only one I have in mind. I knew there were some others, but they apparently didn't do too much damage. And even the first one really did not disturb the test area.
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:40.000
The test stands are built for explosions, ja? So, well you had to replace a few steel girders, but that was a very minor thing.
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:51.000
The assembly shops, they were badly damaged, so you couldn't use them anymore. And also the living and the working quarters, where the engineers were located, --
00:13:51.000 --> 00:14:00.000
-- and where people lived; they were badly damaged, and that was of course in itself a relatively bad incident.
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:07.000
And after the first bomb raid, the one in August '43, up to that time I lived on the base.
00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:18.000
We had a house of living quarters there, House 30, and Rees lived there, I lived there, von Braun lived there - he may have lived in another different building --
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:28.000
-- but a number of people lived there, but the house was destroyed pretty badly during the war. So we had to move out of it and move to the rest of the island of Usedom.
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:38.000
I lived after that time in Kolpingsee another small little village. And that's where we also had finally our design offices.
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:44.000
Design offices and also the blueprint machines in order to make all the large number of blueprints.
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:55.000
So, and that of course, delays the whole thing, ja? To make this move, to set up the new equipment. We even had to get new equipment - we couldn't salvage all the old equipment.
00:14:55.000 --> 00:15:11.050
That was a delay of several months I would say. Now not so much in the production, the production was going and maybe with the exception of some drawings that the people didn't have, they could proceed and they could do whatever they did on their own.
00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:28.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: -- But, for the personal lives, it was quite an interruption. As I said, I had to move to another location, the officers had to move. And so I think it delayed the research and development part of the program for several months.
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:35.000
And I mentioned earlier already, the biggest loss in my opinion was really the death of Walter Thiel.
00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:45.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Yeah, I think in that raid they really intended to attack the settlement. Therefore, were too far south to drop much on the test stands.
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:51.000
But, uh - so you didn't notice those other raids. I gather that in 1944 you had some raid --
00:15:51.000 --> 00:16:05.000
daylight raids from American bombers? [[crosstalk]] They were smaller --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Well, of course you had raids, all over the country, all the time, ja? So it was nothing unusual. You went in the bunker, you waited until it was over, and then everything was back to normal again.
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:14.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Did you - Was that disruptive in terms of work load? The air raid warnings?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Well, of course during the daytime raids you had to go in a shelter,
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:22.000
and people normally were encouraged to do that. Not to stay at their design boards or in their offices. So in that sense it was an interruption.
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:31.000
On the other hand, I don't think it had a major effect. Because again, the production work was going on somewhere else anyway, ja?
00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:44.000
So we didn't do all the new developments - all the new work - that we otherwise possibly could have done. But I don't think that would have affected the whole project in any major way.
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:55.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: OK, I don't know how long to go on. It's getting on to 10 to 6, but umm, [[crosstalk]] maybe we could just talk --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: I didn't even bring my watch.
MICHAEL NEUFELD: It's 10 to-- [[Click]]
00:16:55.000 --> 00:17:03.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: And I mentioned Prasthofer earlier. I think you don't have him on this list right now. He first went to France and worked with the French for a while, --
00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:13.000
-- after Peenemünde. And he was just a design engineer in Peenemünde, so he may not have a lot of specific information you were interested in.
00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:17.000
I think Heimburg has some pretty good overall information.
00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:28.000
And von Thiesenhausen, whom you mentioned earlier, in the area of ground equipment. So he worked in that area. And he is normally also a pretty good and pretty fast talker.
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:36.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Mhmm (Agree). OK, now as far as the question of finishing this up, you-- So as - uh -
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:41.000
Did anything stand out about the last few months at Peenemünde?
00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:54.000
In late '44, early '45? Was it more difficult to operate at that point, than ever? Or ? --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: It became more and more difficult. Particularly also of course in the production area, ja?
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:05.000
They had very often shortages of parts, and of course even if it is just one part, you get - don't get in from the thousands of parts you need, you have to hold up your production line.
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:14.000
And that happened quite often. And it was not too bad in Peenemünde itself, where I was still located and stationed at that time.
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:23.000
Of course we didn't get an awful lot of new research and development work done. So that was certainly also slowed down quite a bit.
00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:32.000
And towards the end of the war, I even think starting early in '44, most people became convinced that Germany had lost the war.
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:44.000
And that of course really depressed the spirit. And people planned more for "Well, what are we going to do next? What are we going to undertake once the war is over?"
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:53.000
And, there was finally an arrangement. I think it was basically even arranged by the SS --
00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:05.460
-- to take 500 of the key people and move them south. Move them to southern Germany, to Oberammergau, Garmisch-Partenkirchen. And that happened in, uh-
00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:22.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: -- let me see, my son was born in March, and I could not go on the train because I got permission to pick my son up in Jena. He just had been born in Jena. He was only a week old or so, --
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:28.000
-- and I moved them - with him and with my wife, whom I picked up - and she also worked in Peenemünde.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:37.000
In fact, she was initially Thiel's secretary when I met her, and later on she was also Riedel's secretary, after Thiel had died.
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:43.000
And she was therefore also on this list of people who were supposed to come down to Garmisch-Partenkirchen.
00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:59.000
So I got permission to buy an automobile. I got rations, I think they were rations from the SS - gasoline rations I mean, not food rations - so that I could buy the necessary gas to drive down there, and then I joined the group again in Oberammergau.
00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:09.000
And the other people had in the meantime moved on by train, a train which transported about 500 people down there, 500 of the key people.
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:31.000
And the intent was of course, it was known that the Russians would take over Peenemünde, and the Germans never were too much in favor of Russian contacts, so there was a very great desire to get out of Peenemünde and to join this team. So we really didn't have a lot of a problem to get the people on the train and to ship them down.
00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:42.000
Of course some people were living in the Peenemünde area. There were farmers initially in that area so they were not too anxious, but I think most people moved down, once they were on this list.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:21:03.000
And then when the war ended we were located in Garmisch-Partenkirchen and the initial intent was even to set up a new design and even production facility in southern Germany. The SS wanted to make a "last stand" in the Alps. Festung Alpen, the Alp Fortress.
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:10.000
And of course we all realized that was hopeless. There was no chance to even start the design work.
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:28.000
I was still in charge of the design group at that time, so I went around to Messerschmidt who had a plant in that area to borrow some drawing boards and some paper, and we finally got some of these things. But of course we never really got to the point where we really did some meaningful drawings.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:44.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: So then you never went to Central Germany first, because the initial--
KONRAD DANNENBERG: -- Well, we drove through central Germany.
MICHAEL NEUFELD: The initial evacuation was from Peenemünde to around the Mittelwerk area.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:58.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Well, many people moved to that area of course, also partially to support the production down there. They needed skilled labor, skilled people who knew about it, and so many of them were for that purpose moved down to Mittelwerke.
00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:08.000
I think there was never really a planned move like the one to the south of Germany to go to that area. At least I hadn't heard about it.
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:17.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Well, that's my impression of the way things worked, but it may have seemed different to you at the time.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: No, many people moved to that area because they were needed in the Mittelwerke, ja?
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:37.000
And also von Braun had - and we have never talked about that yet - he had established a Fertigungsaufsicht, a group of people who went to the companies, who were sure they had the right drawings, they built the right parts, they were responsible basically for the acceptance of these parts and for the shipment to Mittelwerke.
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:49.810
And many people were in that group, and they, in most cases, worked finally out of Mittelwerke, so quite a number of people may have been moved down to that area for that reason, for that purpose.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:58.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: But as far as you - your experience was concerned, you stayed behind in Peenemünde long enough --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Right.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:03.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: But you eventually went straight to Bavaria?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Right.
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:21.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Without stopping off or being based -- in between?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Well, I certainly didn't spend any long time. I probably drove through that area, just right on the path from Peenemünde to southern Germany. I might even have had a few duties, to deliver a few more drawings or something like that.
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:36.000
I don't have any special recollection with it. And then I picked up my son in Jena, which is also in that general area, a little bit further south.
MICHAEL NEUFELD: I've been there, yeah.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: And then I traveled with both of them to Oberammergau.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: This would have been in April, I assume? [[pause for telephone]]
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:56.000
Okay, to finish then -- So your recollection was, that it was March that you left?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: It was definitely March. My son was born on the 25th of March, and I was shortly after that in Jena. Well, it could have been really early April.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:02.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: The first week of April, almost.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Ja, that could, that could be.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:11.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: So that - and you went then directly from there to --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: To Oberammergau.
MICHAEL NEUFELD: To Oberammergau.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Ja.
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:24.000
And of course at that time we were still not under confinement, so to speak. Later on we were put in a German army barracks, they were not really barracks, they were pretty fancy building, Kasernen.
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:42.000
But the first month or so we were on our own. As I said, we were supposed to establish new design offices, eventually even new manufacturing facilities, and that was the purpose of this, the -- announced purpose of this move down to southern Germany.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:54.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: You were not up in that, then, in the hotel up on the - where von Braun --
KONRAD DANNENBERG: That was a very small group. That was only von Braun and about another five, six people or so.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:05.000
Von Braun's brother; Lindenberg was with him; Dieter Huzel, who wrote the book; and two or three others, so that was a relatively small group.
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Yeah, so at the end of the war you were still in Oberammergau.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Right.
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:15.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: With the design group that was sitting there.
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:25.000
Was it tense at that point? In terms of dealing - you had to worry about the SS and what they were going to do at the very last days of the war?
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:41.000
KONRAD DANNENBERG: And our big problem was, of course, we had lots of SS papers. As I said, my gas coupons were being issued by the SS. So all the people down in that area, they all thought we were SS troops,
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:54.000
-- and at some time, a number of us were already lined up on the wall and people wanted to shoot us - Americans even. The Americans had taken over already and they wanted to shoot these bad SS people.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:08.000
And then in the very last minute somebody showed up and said, "Well, don't kill these people, they are from Peenemünde. They are the rocket people, and we want to talk to them first."
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:24.000
And so we were not shot at that time. Schilling was in that group with me, at that time. And Zoike - I don't know if you've mentioned the name Zoike already. He was running the valve laboratory at that time.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:43.000
So in a way, to answer your question: yes, it was tense, it was very tense, particularly after the war finally really ended. You really didn't know what was going to happen. We didn't have rations in Peenemünde. You didn't need rations. We could eat in the cafeteria.
00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:58.000
So we didn't have an awful lot to eat, and my wife with a little son just two weeks old, she didn't get enough milk, enough all the good stuff you need for little babies, so that was a relatively tough time.
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:07.000
And then after the Americans had taken over, some of them apparently were even pretty hateful - which you can understand, at the end of a war --
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:20.000
-- and they even collected all the food which was available in that area - and you probably·know they make a lot of butter and cheese and things like that - they piled it up all in one big heap, poured some gasoline on it and burned all the food.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:36.000
And that made the people of course really mad, ja? We didn't have enough to eat in the first place, and now they even destroy these few parts, these few pieces we still had left. So that didn't exactly help for good relations.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:59.000
But apparently that was one of these incidents and I think in the long run it disappeared again. I think from the very beginning the relationships with the Americans--and that I think were even French troops, French colored people. The French had a number of colored armies and they did this, so we probably were even more mad at the French than at the Americans.
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:26.000
But the Americans finally came to the places where we worked. We were initially not in the Kaserne in Oberammergau, we were distributed all over the country, but we were finally picked up by American jeeps and then taken over to Oberammergau - to Garmisch-Partenkirchen - where we had the army barracks where we finally were housed, and where we finally got also the information that we will be offered a contract.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:47.000
Now, I myself went first up to Cuxhaven - you probably heard about Operation Backfire - so I was picked up by the British in Garmish-Partenkirchen. They took us by trucks to Cuxhaven, and we launched three V-2s there, in Cuxhaven, for the British.
00:28:47.000 --> 00:29:11.000
And then at that time, the contract was written with the Americans, and my wife signed for me because I was in Cuxhaven, and the contract was offered - and maybe that's where you got the idea that a lot of people were living in Nordhausen. The initial army contacts were made in Nordhausen. And I think also the contracts were signed in Nordhausen.
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:28.000
My wife was living at that time close by in Eschwege, which is not too far from Nordhausen, and she finally got contacted by von Braun and she signed for me that I was willing to come over here, because she knew that I would be interested, so she didn't even have to check with me.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:44.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Why would you be interested?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: I was always interested in rockets, and there was not much going on in Europe, in Germany at that time. Germany was kaput. And I didn't have a job. My job was really in Peenemünde.
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:56.000
Even the VDO where I was working before, they probably had to start from scratch again. And I was basically interested in rockets, as a number of people were who came over to this country.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:15.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: And you didn't really feel at that time - it's hard, you have to think back - negatively about the United States as such?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Well, in a way, when, in the last days in Peenemünde, we already philosophized quite often - well, what is going to happen after the war?
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:24.000
And one of our favorite subjects of discussion was to eventually come to the United States and to keep on building bigger and bigger rockets here in the United States.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:39.000
So we really, we were certainly not antagonistic, and I think in a way our early dreams even really finally got being fulfilled.
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:51.000
And also von Braun, I think von Braun had fairly well planned the whole thing through. Although the transport was arranged by the SS, but von Braun went along with it.
00:30:51.000 --> 00:31:11.000
And many people have told us that really the main purpose of the SS was to use the Peenemünde group - the von Braun group - as a negotiating token, so that the SS people could save their own lives by making this group available.
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:23.000
Now, again, von Braun was always a pretty good negotiator. He finally got completely out of under the reach of the SS, so we made the contact with the Americans directly, directly from von Braun.
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:40.000
His brother who spoke really the best English of the whole bunch at that time - he really had most of the discussions. And the SS was not a part of it at all. Dornberger was also with von Braun, in Oberjoch, ja, which you mentioned earlier.
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:59.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: As far as your discussions then about possibly going to the United States, when you were just in the last phases of Peenemünde, was that a discussion that had to be kept in a fairly tight group?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Oh, ja. You talk only to your very closest friends about that.
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:10.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: That's the kind of talk that'll land you in a concentration camp.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Right. Definitely. So you didn't talk to strangers about that at all, and even among our closest friends we were very carefully talking about these things.
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:21.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: How small was the group who were discussing that, or was it just a bunch of, small groups of friends talking to each other?
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Just individuals, I would say. Individuals talking to one another.
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:28.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Not any kind of core group around that was involved in that.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: No. No.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:44.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: So it was just a -- so that's interesting in terms of seeing just where the idea came from and to what extent von Braun was planning to try to use that.
KONRAD DANNENBERG: Well, I think von Braun certainly did quite a bit of that planning, and it fortunately worked out all right.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:57.000
And, again, I think it shows you a little bit the wisdom of von Braun, even in these non-technical areas. He normally knows which way to go and how to make the right decisions.
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:06.000
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Okay. Well, is there anything else that we should cover? I guess it's late enough, though, we should just stop, at this point.
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:13.800
KONRAD DANNENBERG: And right off-hand I can't think of anything else. If I can, maybe I can still contact you?
MICHAEL NEUFELD: Yes.
