Claire Collins Harvey, 1993 June 15, Side 1
Web Video Text Tracks Format (WebVTT)
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Louise Spence: First of all, what your name is-- [[Laughter]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Well that helps.
Pearl Bowser:
Louise Spence: [[Laughter]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Want all of it?
Louise Spence: Yes.
Claire Collins Harvey: Emma Clarie Augusta Collins Harvey.
Louise Spence: Wow.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Born in Regent, Mississippi; bet you guess the year. [[Chuckle]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Moved to Jackson 7 years later. Been-- [[noise]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Came to school here in the sixth grade, so-- What else you want?
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Louise Spence: Said you grew up in the Ferris Street area?
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yes, yes. Learned to roller skate, right, and ride my bicycle down Ferris Street. [[inaudible]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Now the original business is still on Ferris Street. I just done walked right over here, just like I used to as a child.
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Pearl Bowser: And that's Collins as in 'C.' Collins Harvey?
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah. And then we--
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Claire Collins Harvey: Two years ago, we got an-- So that's second generation,
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Claire Collins Harvey: Third generation said to me that, they felt that, uh,
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Claire Collins Harvey: the business was really started in the 1800s, but we date it from, not in Collins,
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Claire Collins Harvey: we date it from 1903 because that's when we began to know most [[inaudible]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: our north side location.
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Claire Collins Harvey: We did two years ago, and it's multifaceted.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And then we, well, it's a God-given idea that
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Claire Collins Harvey: some of the most unused space in the community is churches and funeral homes.
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Louise Spence: Umm.
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Claire Collins Harvey: They usually just wait for Sunday until some occasion or something happens and that they--
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Claire Collins Harvey: Service to the community and to the people living in the community should be more than that.
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Louise Spence: Mhm.
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Claire Collins Harvey: So--
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Louise Spence: You were saying that you do other things as well and-- What other things?
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yes. Let me finish this particular track.
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Louise Spence: Oh, I'm sorry.
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Claire Collins Harvey: No, that's fine. And don't say, "I'm sorry."
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[[laughter from both other voices]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: No, in metaphysical things, we've learned that
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Claire Collins Harvey: your body absorbs it. When you walk down the street,
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Claire Collins Harvey: "Sorry we're closed." "Sorry we're closed. "Sorry." At the end of the line we have a line of depression
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Claire Collins Harvey: without knowing why you're having it. I said to the telephone --
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Claire Collins Harvey: I said to him-- I said to him, "So just take it and read it,
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Claire Collins Harvey: but t-test yourself. End of lecture. Now lets talk."
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[[laugh]]
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Louise Spence: Yeah, yeah. Let me-- Let's t-turn this off.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Oh.
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Thank you very much.
[SILENCE]
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Claire Collins Harvey: You wanna know how I got to Jackson, alright? Born in Regent, Mississippi,
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Claire Collins Harvey: which is not far away.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And my father was already in the funeral business in Hattiesburg, Mississippi.
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Claire Collins Harvey: (inaudible)
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Claire Collins Harvey: And Mr. Frasier, who had started this business in Jacksonville,
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Claire Collins Harvey: son got involved, and I don't know whether you can use this or not, or should use it,
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Claire Collins Harvey: but he got involved with a white person; a white girl,
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Claire Collins Harvey: and he had to leave Mississippi. I understand he left on the freight train.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And he was an only child, and the mother wanted to go where he went,
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Claire Collins Harvey: which was Ohio, someplace like that. So Mr. Frasier went looking around for somebody
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Claire Collins Harvey: to take the business, buy the business and make it work.
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Claire Collins Harvey: So my-- He called my father. Got in touch with my father.
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Claire Collins Harvey: The business that my father was in Hattiesburg was with a man named E. W. Hall.
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Claire Collins Harvey: I don't know what E. W. stood for, I just called him Unclie Dougie.
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Claire Collins Harvey: No just verbal, uncle [[inaudible]], not blood relative.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And then, spent time there,
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Claire Collins Harvey: and then in Marie, Mississippi, where my mother was born.
Claire Collins Harvey: Her family lived, they lived with his family. But anyway,
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Claire Collins Harvey: when he bought the business from Mr. Fraiser,
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Claire Collins Harvey: Ummm, about 1924, he moved the task,
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Claire Collins Harvey: but he kept the business in Hattiesburg, Jacksonville.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And we still at [[inaudible]] Street, now the same side of the street
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Claire Collins Harvey: [[inaudible]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: So, how you say [[inaudible]]--
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Claire Collins Harvey: I have a strong-- Really. I don't have the answer to that, you know?
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Claire Collins Harvey: So you still ask me questions?
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Pearl Bowser: No, you, you--
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[[background noises throughout conversation]]
Pearl Bowser: You are doing fine because you are identifying the very specific group in the Black community;
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Pearl Bowser: There were entrepreneurs, business people.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Right.
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Pearl Bowser: And part of our research and our project deals with some of the entrepreneurial class which
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Pearl Bowser: was responsible for some of the early movie business--
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Claire Collins Harvey: Alright. Well the Entre--
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Pearl Bowser: -- funding theaters and stuff like that. And [[inaudible]].
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Claire Collins Harvey: Well the Entrepreneurial Amistad Research Center in New Orleans; have you been there for records?
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Pearl Bowser: Ah, no, not yet.
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Claire Collins Harvey: They have all my family papers dating for generations.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And ah, and a lot about business. It's at Tulane University.
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Claire Collins Harvey: You know the Amistad-- [[Cross Talk]]
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Pearl Bowser: At Tulane?
Louise Spence: Um hmn.
Claire Collins Harvey: They finally got to Tulane. They've been all over [[inaudible]].
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Claire Collins Harvey: You know how Amistad got started, right?
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Louise Spence: I don't know.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Well, this is what [[?]] was trying to do his doctoral dissertation
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Claire Collins Harvey: On the Amistad Resolt-- Revolt.
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Pearl Bowser: Mmm-- The Slave Rebellion.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Hmn?
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Pearl Bowser: The Slave Rebellion, you're talking about?
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Claire Collins Harvey: Amistad.
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Pearl Bowser: You're talking about the Slave Rebellion.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah! Yeah, Yeah. that's right. Yes.
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Pearl Bowser: Did you hear this?
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Louise Spence: Yeah, sure, I know.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And he found that most of the records
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Claire Collins Harvey: were at Fisk University, which they--
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Claire Collins Harvey: It wasn't started,-- sponsored [[??]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: It's a religious group, out of [[??]]. Fisk is in Nashville, Tennessee.
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Pearl Bowser: Yeah.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And, they told [[??]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: [[inaudible]] [[Society??]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: So, he went there to do his doctoral dissertation
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Claire Collins Harvey: His, he's white. He still lives back there.
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Silence
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Claire Collins Harvey: And, he found that the people who were doing the research
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Claire Collins Harvey: The-- the folks, the life that was doing research,
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Claire Collins Harvey: [Ants]]-- [[Rats?]]
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[[Laughter]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: All of that. All of these boxes of valuable [[inaudible]].
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Claire Collins Harvey: And a mmm, nobody had preserved it in any way, so they showed it--
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Claire Collins Harvey: [[inaudible]] the American Missionary Association sponsored it.
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Claire Collins Harvey: They were able to get the records
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Claire Collins Harvey: Um, to Memphis in school there, something else is with it. Amistad been around [[inaudible]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: but finally that-- Pardon me? [[Cross Talk]]
Pearl Bowser: [[side conversation]] That was [[Eckerton?]]. It was in Yale, Yale with, with--
Claire Collins Harvey: It was several places.
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Pearl Bowser: I'm sorry, the Wadsworth Museum did a--
Claire Collins Harvey: I see.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Well in New Orleans, I knew it's been 3 places in New Orleans, Dillard University, Tulane, the [[??]], at the Met
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Claire Collins Harvey: [[inaudible]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: And anyways, that's [[??]]. A combination of it.
Pearl Bowser: Getting back to your, your immediate roots-- family-- here in Mississippi. As business-- as people in business
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Claire Collins Harvey: All right, give me a second. My great grandfather-- my mother's grandfather-- Meridian, Mississippi, was Lauderdale County, Mississippi. He was a plantation owner, and she says when they used to go from Meridian to visit him on the plantation he would come in as little time as possible.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Just water sloshing from his boots, and it was sweat, perspiration. [[??]] a picture of him.
Pearl Bowser: He was a [[??]]?
Claire Collins Harvey: I have my picture-- his picture of him. The [[??]] in the summer. And then, um, that's all I have
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Claire Collins Harvey: That ummm .. blacks could not go to them
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Pearl Bowser: Hhmm mhh
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Claire Collins Harvey: and he choose Meridian because Meridian, Mississippi was larger than [[Jackson was?]][[loud noise]] at that time.
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Claire Collins Harvey: She became the first black girl at that time. You gotta go?
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Claire Collins Harvey: That's alright. You heard all of it.
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Unknown Speaker 1: No, but I gotta go report this accident. I had a slight accident.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Car?
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Unknown Speaker 1: Car, and I got to go and get that reported, when I have that meeting over there site.
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Unknown Speaker 1: He told me we have the same date, you know? somebody told me it's the same date
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, yeah.
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Unknown Speaker 1: So I got to go do that. Time for the kids to head home, and then ...
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Unknown Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I had to walk up
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Pearl Bowser: That's right, you didn't know mostly this
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Unknown Speaker 1: I gotta get down, I gotta get down there
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Pearl Bowser: Ok, should we call you later, or ...
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Unknown Speaker 1: Ohh .. you can call me umm .. after nine this evening
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Pearl Bowser: Ok
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Unknown Speaker 1: I have to get on tomorrow
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Pearl Bowser: Talking about the library.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Oh yes. So she was teaching at that time.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Homeschooling Marie, at the public school. She went to Hampton. I had to go home.
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Claire Collins Harvey: A truck--trunk that she used when she went to Tuskegee and Hampton.
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Claire Collins Harvey: They allowed her in science school
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Claire Collins Harvey: And she came back, and then said, I'm the first negro umm in the state of Mississippi.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And I was born in 1916.
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Claire Collins Harvey: First thing she did was evidently hand me a book.
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[[laughter]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: I knew I had to take the book to the beauty shop when I got my hair done,
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Claire Collins Harvey: And I prayed very hard that I'd marry someone who loved to read
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Claire Collins Harvey: Because I didn't want him to think I was lazy when I was sitting down with a book. [[laughter]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Oh and I don't know what to say. Let me get on with what you all were talking about. Cause I didn't-- I could talk for ages.
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Pearl Bowser: It's fine.
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[[laughing]]
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Pearl Bowser: Umm .. Were any of the-- did you go to the movies at all?
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, but let me go back to the beginning. Jackson, should have that, [[??]].
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Claire Collins Harvey: Ummm .. We were talking about um...
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Pearl Bowser: You were in fourth grade here in Jackson?
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah fourth and fifth grade, yeah. No, fifth and sixth grade, fifth and sixth grade, yeah
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[Silence]
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Claire Collins Harvey: This is a new active shooting spot... Anyway
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Claire Collins Harvey: I don't know, I lost track come on get me back.
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Pearl Bowser: You were um, you said you .. you returned to Jackson?
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Pearl Bowser: you're in 4th or 5th grade. Um. How long were you here in Jackson (--)
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Claire Collins Harvey: I've been in Jackson ever since.
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Pearl Bowser: Oh, you have been here ever since.
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Claire Collins Harvey: See, that's when my father bought the business in 1924,
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Claire Collins Harvey: and that's when I came from upstairs on the [[??]] from where we lived,
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Claire Collins Harvey: and the oldest [[??]], and come over here to school. And I went to high school here, but I finished high school at Jackson College.
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Claire Collins Harvey: In that period of my life, and I'm talking about 1924, 1930 period of time
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Claire Collins Harvey: there were, uh, no schools in the state of Mississippi where you could, uh, go for a ninth grade education.
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Claire Collins Harvey: So, whites who could afford it rented homes or bought homes in Jackson
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Claire Collins Harvey: and enrolled in schools in Jackson, Jackson College in [[??]] They'd stay all week until Friday,
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Claire Collins Harvey: and then go home Saturday, Sunday and come back.
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Claire Collins Harvey: In fact, uh, since this man just recently asked me, asked me about-- They have some of that in the background,
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Claire Collins Harvey: in fact, I think I was a classmate with his mother at Jackson.
Pearl Bowser: Umm.
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Claire Collins Harvey: [[??]], but they came to Jackson City from Natchez,
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Claire Collins Harvey: from all over who wanted their children to have something more than 8 grades,
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Claire Collins Harvey: and that was all they could get in their towns.
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[SILENCE]
Claire Collins Harvey: But, uh, for me it was a blessing
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Claire Collins Harvey: because a person named Marie Young was a teacher of French - Je peux parle francais. Mon dieu!
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[[Laughter]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Um, her father was Colonel Charles Young, the first uh --
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Pearl Bowser: [[??]] He was the highest ranking officer in the 1920s. [[Cross Talk]]
Claire Collins Harvey: That's right.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Uh huh, yes, that's right, and they came from Ohio - near Wilberforce, but here he's put way over here in Africa.
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Claire Collins Harvey: His wife was left him with these two children. Boy and Girl. Marie Young was her name,
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Claire Collins Harvey: and so that, that the father-- the children could have some life with their father, um...
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Claire Collins Harvey: The children were put, placed in in the convent in Paris.
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Claire Collins Harvey: And so she learned the pure unadulterated French, she told us about sanitary napkins, we had Kotex in those days.
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Pearl Bowser: [[giggles]]
Claire Collins Harvey: Au France.
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Claire Collins Harvey: She was just really, really, really, really quite great.
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Claire Collins Harvey: That was um-- And I told you about the families going back, the children would stay with.
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Pearl Bowser: Mm-mm [[affirmative]]
Claire Collins Harvey: But anyway I got really good French and so did the others.
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Claire Collins Harvey: I finished high school at Tugaloo.
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Pearl Bowser: Tugaloo.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yes, which is an American Missionary, the same thing [[??]] stayed in.
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Claire Collins Harvey: My Mother used to drive me um, by car on a dirt road.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Between here and Tugaloo, have you been to Tugaloo?
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Pearl Bowser: I've been there yes.
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Claire Collins Harvey: So you know the distance and what it must have been like on a dirt road.
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Pearl Bowser: Mm-mm [[affirmative]]
Claire Collins Harvey: Umm
Pearl Bowser: Would, would you mind kind of describing that as a young person maybe making that trip. To go to school? [[Cross Talk]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Oh it was. [[Cross Talk]]
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Louise Spence: How long did it take you? [[Cross Talk]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Half hour or forty five minutes, something like that.
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Pearl Bowser: Mm-mm [[affirmative]]
Claire Collins Harvey: Oh it was it was fun, it was fun.
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Pearl Bowser: But you had to leave early in the day and then.
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Claire Collins Harvey: No Tugaloo isn't that far.
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Pearl Bowser: Mm-hmm [[affirmative]]
Claire Collins Harvey: It's not that far from Jackson.
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Pearl Bowser: Mm-hmm [[affirmative]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: But it was a dirt road that wasn't properly. [00:16:]
Pearl Bowser: But you made it. Further. [[Cross Talk]]
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yes and it [[??]] I mean it was was not well kept roads.
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Claire Collins Harvey: Anyways.
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Louise Spence: But you had your own car?
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Claire Collins Harvey: Yup, because you were in the fuel business.
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Louise Spence: Ahh, I see! Yeah.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:41.000
Claire Collins Harvey: [[Laughing]] [[Cross Talk]]
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:45.000
Claire Collins Harvey: The first car we had though, well darn i guess because of the film business.
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:50.000
Claire Collins Harvey: My Father was in the film business in Hattiesburg before he moved to Jackson. [[??]]
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And it was a Buick.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:17:00.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And Mother used it to take me from um 2513th street to Meridian Mississippi.
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:05.000
Claire Collins Harvey: To Haven Teachers College, it had some other name which was a Methodist School.
00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:09.000
Claire Collins Harvey: They had good schooling for children.
00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:15.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I could, I could see that with the ice in the glass you know. [[??]]
00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Alright, get me back on second.
00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:20.000
Louise Spence: So what happens if there was a funeral you couldn't go to school?
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I had more than one car.
00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:30.000
Louise Spence: Oh.
Claire Collins Harvey: We had one at one time. And um the thing is uh you always.
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:38.000
Claire Collins Harvey: -you could trade with somebody, somebody can bring me back. We had a funeral right this afternoon. Somebody could bring me back from school. [[inadible]]
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:40.000
00:17:40.000 --> 00:18:04.000
Pearl Bowser: Now, getting back to the businesses. In some of the cities here in the South, banks, Black banks, undertakers. There was a Churchill, in Tup-- not Tupeloo,
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:15.000
Pearl Bowser: Laurel. Laurel. Laurel. [[Cross Talk]]
Claire Collins Harvey: There was a--
Pearl Bowser: Churchill, who I think was also an undertaker, that invested in amusement. He--
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.000
Claire Collins Harvey: He invested in amusement what?
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:17.000
Pearl Bowser: I mean, built a theater
00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:18.000
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Oh I see, that actually [[??]]
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:28.000
Pearl Bowser: Yeah. And I wanted to know if there was any kind of connection in terms of your family, or any of those members of your family with-- [[crosstalk]]
Claire Collins Harvey: No.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:29.000
00:18:29.000 --> 00:20:00.000
Pearl Bowser: by theater, I mean movie houses where (movies?) were filmed and [[inaudible]]--
Claire Collins Harvey: No. No. We went to churches my father was a
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:01.000
[SILENCE]
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:07.000
Claire Collins Harvey: But I had to be selective with [inaudible] everything
Pearl Bowser: Uhm.
00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.000
Pearl Bowser: Who chose?
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.000
[Silence]
Claire Collins Harvey: My--
Pearl Bowser: What?
00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:15.000
Pearl Bowser: And how did she choose?
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I don't know how she chose. She just said "Claire you can't go to see that."
00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:20.000
[[Laughter]]
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:21.000
Claire Collins Harvey: "Claire, you can't go to see that ."
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:22.000
[[Laughter]]
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.000
Pearl Bowser: What kind of things did she like?
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:28.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Oh well,
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.000
Claire Collins Harvey: things that improved the culture It was not, ummm--
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:41.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Er, remember now that she is a Hampton and Tuskegee student,
00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:49.000
Claire Collins Harvey: so she's has had some, and she's brought up in a family that was plantation owners, so that she-- And before I left Maridian, we used to go to the theater there.
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:58.000
Claire Collins Harvey: It was upstairs, and we had to sit in the balcony for opera or whatever, it was not the movie movie, it was stage.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, I remember that.
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:03.000
Pearl Bowser: Did you go to [[?]] with your family then?
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Hmm?
Pearl Bowser: Did you go with your family?
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:11.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Oh yes, I usually went with family, I would also children who were friends whose parents said that they could go.
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:17.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And usually, they had an older person with us, not, not about your age, [[laughs]]
00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:24.000
Claire Collins Harvey: but, eh, it could be a bigger-- big sister. It didn't have to be an adult, that's what I'm saying.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:25.000
Pearl Bowser: Hmm.
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:30.000
Claire Collins Harvey: But yes, you had to because you-- they wanted you to feel that you were protected.
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:42.000
Claire Collins Harvey: But one of the things that impresses me [inaudible] is the fact that I knew so little about segregation
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.000
Claire Collins Harvey: having lived here in the south, you would have thought that,
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:54.000
Claire Collins Harvey: but because we had no cars for the funeral, and we used our personal, I escaped a lot.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:03.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Now when I went to Spelman; Spelman was my Alma Mater, um, you could go shopping downtown periodically with your girls,
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:11.000
Claire Collins Harvey: and you had to wear your gloves. You ran around the dormitory seeing whose gloves you could buy, or borrow.
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:16.000
Pearl Bowser: Um---
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:24.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I don't necess-- [[Cross Talk]]
Pearl Bowser: You had to dress up in order to go to downtown stores which were-- [Cross Talk]
Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Claire Collins Harvey: [[inaudible]]
Pearl Bowser: white stores.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:30.000
Louise Spence: You were talking about-- [[Cross Talk]]
Pearl Bowser: It was your first experience with segregation [[Cross Talk]]
Claire Collins Harvey: Oh yes, yes yes. How did you know that?
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:33.000
[[Loud noise throughout]]
Claire Collins Harvey: Did you hear it again?
Pearl Bowser: I hearing. I hearing!
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:39.000
Claire Collins Harvey: That's the truth. I got on the bus or the the trolley and I sat down up front.
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:46.000
Claire Collins Harvey: and my friend says, "Come on. Come on back here with us." I said, "That's alright I'll sit right here".
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:54.000
Claire Collins Harvey: "Come on back here, girl!" And then when I got back there, "You come from Mississippi,you know you not supposed to sit up front".
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I did not know that I wasn't supposed to sit up front.
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:59.000
Pearl Bowser: You never rode the buses here?
Claire Collins Harvey: No.
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:08.000
Claire Collins Harvey: We always had a car. Buicks, in those days. [[??]] Cadillacs. Now they have limos like-- I don't look at em.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:18.000
Claire Collins Harvey: [[Laughs]] Yes, that is how far removed I Was from civilization. I hear people now,when I got up to [[?]] the Civil Rights Movement
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:24.000
Claire Collins Harvey: they're talking about having to stand on street corners, you know; wait for the bus.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:31.000
Claire Collins Harvey:
Claire Collins Harvey: How they might get accosted by some white male, and none entered my experience.
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:36.000
Louise Spence: You didn't go down to-- downtown Jackson and shop?
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:47.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Yes, with my mother. There was a store named [[??]] on the corner of Barrage and Capitol Streets.
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:53.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And, uh-- This clerk came up to my mother and said, "Auntie, what can I do for you today?"
00:23:53.000 --> 00:24:07.000
Claire Collins Harvey: My mother looked at me, and she says, "I didn't know we had any soap available. I didn't know we had any white bread at all."
Claire Collins Harvey: I didn't know what she was talking about. [[Laughter]]
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:20.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And she [[inaudible]] over there, and she says, "Whose side of the family are you on?" [[Laughter]]
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:33.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Of course, that dear soul, she thought she had been nice calling my mother, "Auntie."
Pearl Bowser: Auntie.
Claire Collins Harvey: She didn't know she had insulted-- [[Laughs]]
Louise Spence: Did you go to any of the large theaters in downtown Jackson?
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:40.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Oh, I didn't get back to the reunion thing. I don't remember any movie theaters,
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:49.000
Claire Collins Harvey: but the dramas and plays would come to the Paramount and the New Stage [[?]] the Cotillion, maybe, You know.
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:57.000
Claire Collins Harvey: They had a huge theater, but the plays would come, and all that, but Blacks sat in the balcony.
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:00.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And um--
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.000
Claire Collins Harvey: [[background voice]]
Pearl Bowser: Did you ever see any black performances in that theater? Meridian?
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.000
Claire Collins Harvey: [[Cross Talk]] No. No.
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:07.000
Pearl Bowser: [[Cross talk]] No black entertainers?
Claire Collins Harvey: No, no, no black entertainers.
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:10.000
[SILENCE]
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:15.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Anyway that's the way it was done. It was done on a segregated basis and you had the balcony.
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:24.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And you may have had to pass through a line of um-- What those guys with the white hoods?
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:32.000
Pearl Bowser: Klan?
Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, Klu Klux Klan. Forgetting. But the Klu Klux Klan wasn't taught to me as something to fear.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:34.000
Claire Collins Harvey: We went out and watched them march.
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:42.000
Louise Spence: They marched in parades?
Claire Collins Harvey: Naw. They marched at night; they getting ready to do some of that dirty business.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:50.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I guess because I was an only child, I missed a lot of things that brothers and sisters would have told me that my parents didn't explain.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.000
Pearl Bowser: Uhm hmm, protected you from?
Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, protected me from.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:10.000
Pearl Bowser: Yup, Yup. The um movie that, um, we were watching when you came in, deals with um the Klu Klux Klan. 1920, Oscar Micheaux.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:17.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Now this theater down the street, which is a half block from my business, Alamo Theater, that she's very interested in
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:29.000
Claire Collins Harvey: was owned by a liberal white, maybe he was Jewish, and he was very kind to people; he treated you right; didn't cheat you.
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:40.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I can't remember his name, she probably knows his name, but that's as far as I could go and I would have to go with some older sibling child.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:50.000
Louise Spence: So you did go to the Alamo Theater?
Claire Collins Harvey: Yes, yes.
Pearl Bowser: The old Alamo?
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:59.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Yes, and then later we had a negro - Leroy Jackson, was a classmate of mine in Tupelo - after he finished, he administered, he worked under the [inaudable].
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:07.000
Claire Collins Harvey: In fact, you didn't know the theater was owned by Jewish and White because you would always see Leroy there, whatever.
Pearl Bowser: [[Cross Talk]] He was the manager.
Claire Collins Harvey: Yep.
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:21.000
Louise Spence: He is not living anymore, Mr Jackson?
Claire Collins Harvey: No. He died in California some years ago. But his sister lives in Tupelo. [00:27:18
Louise Spence: Chicago?
Claire Collins Harvey: Tupelo.
Louise Spence: Oh in Tupelo.
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:28.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, um hmm [Inaudable]
Louise Spence: Was she living in Jackson--
Claire Collins Harvey: No, they weren't there. [[Cross Talk]]
Louise Spence: when he was manager?
Claire Collins Harvey: I don't know, he might. [[Cross Talk]]
Louise Spence: When he was manager.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.000
Claire Collins Harvey: He might--
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:35.000
Claire Collins Harvey: She might have moved here. She's older than me. She may have moved to Jackson at the time.
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:42.000
Pearl Bowser: Were you friends with her?
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:51.000
Claire Collins Harvey: She was older. He was not. In fact, she told me recently that she had recently remarried. [[Laughter]] [[inaudible]] in Jackson.
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:57.000
Claire Collins Harvey: He came from Hattiesburg, Mississippi, where my dad had his first business,
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:08.000
Claire Collins Harvey: and whenever my dad was coming to Jackson, I mean, coming to Meridian on the train,
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:18.000
Claire Collins Harvey: [[inaudible]] They'd come by train. The Fullerman go, before he comes on the train; one of the things every week-- every two weeks -- he'd
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:26.000
Claire Collins Harvey: send by train his soiled clothes to my mother Marie, in Mississippi and she sent them back all laundered, and all the rest of it.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:37.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And then Daddy would come up to Meridian, and they'd say that Leroy Jackson, he had only 4 fingers,
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:44.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I mean 1 finger [[inaudible]] one hand got. [[inaudible]] So he would stand. And they called my Daddy Fess, Fess, Fess, Fessor.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:58.000
Claire Collins Harvey: F-E-S-S-E-S. Professor. Because he was a graduate of Russ College in University of Chicago. So he was an educated person.
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:05.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And see, white folks couldn't call you Mister or Mrs. They'd call you Professor, anything but Mister or Mrs.
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:15.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Well, they say he would stand when she came through, "Tell Claire I said hello" [[laughter]]
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:16.000
Louise Spence: Do you remember him when you were so young?
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:27.000
Claire Collins Harvey: No, I don't remember him. Because you see, I didn't have the experience of that. But he had the experience of me coming through Hattiesburg to visit my father.
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:36.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Cause my father was in there, with a business, an entrepeneurship with E.W. Cole,
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:41.000
Claire Collins Harvey: who had a bicycle business, so he was in the bicycle business; a bicycle man,
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:53.000
Claire Collins Harvey: and Daddy - with degrees in Math from Rush and the University of Chicago - they pooled together their two different businesses.
00:29:53.000 --> 00:30:00.000
Pearl Bowser: They weren't partners, you say?
Claire Collins Harvey: They were partners.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:10.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, I said they pulled together. Yes they were partners,[inaudable] 19-- When was that war? Way back then.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:19.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Daddy escaped the war because they said he was coming down the steps of my grandmothers' home to go into the service,
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:23.000
Claire Collins Harvey: and the sirens rang and rang that the war was over.
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:29.000
Pearl Bowser: 1945.
Claire Collins Harvey: No, no, no, no.
Louise Spence: World War One.
Pearl Bowser: World War One.
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:33.000
[laughter]
Claire Collins Harvey: Wake her up, she's tired. [laughter, crosstalk]
Louise Spence: She's tired
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.000
Pearl Bowser: I'm losing certain of your words here.
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:42.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Oh yes, and I'm randering, going at random, because of a lot of this I haven't thought of in years.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:51.000
Claire Collins Harvey: But Leroy Jackson did manage for this Jewish man who owned the theatre. The theatre.
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:56.000
Louise Spence: I'm having trouble, you are talking now when you were in high school that you knew Mr. Jackson.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:04.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I'm having a little trouble, or were you already out of high school when you were friends with Mr. Jackson?
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:08.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I hear you. I'm trying to figure it out myself. [inaudable]
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:13.000
Louise Spence: I'm not gonna make you tell me how old you are because you said you don't want to. [[Laughter]]
Claire Collins Harvey: Oh I didn't say I didn't want to.
Louise Spence: Oh OK [[Laughs]]
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:20.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I don't mind. Do you wanna guess?
Louise Spence: No you already did, you let it slip you were born in 1916.
Claire Collins Harvey: Hehehe
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.000
Louise Spence: That's why I'm trying-- I'm trying to figure out-- So you were still in high school when you were seeing Mr. Jackson?I
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:32.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Yes, yes, yeah. Cause I only had two years in Tupelo; my senior year in high school and my freshman year, then I went on to Spelman.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.000
Louise Spence: So that's before you went to Spelman?
Claire Collins Harvey: Thats it.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:44.000
Louise Spence: So you went to the movies at the Alamo? [[Crosstalk]]
Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, He would let me in free. [[Both laugh]]
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:46.000
Louise Spence: Did you go to see the movies or go to see him?
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:54.000
Claire Collins Harvey: For me, he was just always a friend. Not really a boyfriend, but he felt that way toward me evidently.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:04.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And because from his childhood, he had that feeling ,and evidently talked about it in his family, a great deal.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:11.000
Claire Collins Harvey: But we never-- We would go on dates, but not never really boyfriend, girlfriend.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:17.000
Louise Spence: And when you went to the movies then, did you see only movies or were there shows along with it?
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:24.000
Louise Spence: Occasional show. I would think maybe like once a month, but I am not sure that was the case.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:30.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Jus' whoever happen to be moving through the south and would stop here in Mississippi, in Jackson.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.000
Louise Spence: So, did they advertise it in a special way so that you'd know it was a special show or?
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:38.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I presume they did. I presume they did, Yes.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:46.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Yes. I'm sure they did, that so and so was gonna-- beau chambeau [[?]] is gonna be here at such and such a date.
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:52.000
Claire Collins Harvey: everybody flocked to go hear beau chambeau. Ain't no such character. [laughter]
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:57.000
Louise Spence: So, if, if that person is coming through would it just be that person's show or would it be a movie too?
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:05.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I don't know. Whatever brought in the most money to them.
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:13.000
Pearl Bowser: So, when you went to the --
Claire Collins Harvey: [crosstalk]--They probably had to have a movie too. To make the overheads.
Pearl Bowser: --that you said that they probably had to have a movie to make--
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:28.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Overheads. You see you bring a group of ten people or twelve people you got to pay a lot of money. Which is, you know not- you've got to pay the money. And you've gotto make your overheads also.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:34.000
Claire Collins Harvey: So, I presume they did that.
Louise Spence: But you don't remember going then huh?
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:38.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Didn't say I didn't go, but if I did it was rare.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:46.000
Louise Spence: On, on those rare occasions when you went, it wasn't the movie attracted you? Or--
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:52.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Yeah, it was something, someone had talked about at least [[inaudible]]--
Pearl Bowser: --it was something good to see.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:58.000
Louise Spence: So, did you, did you go yourself then? Or did, did Mr. Jackson let you and your friends in for free? [[laughter]]
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:08.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I don't know. I 'spect he lets us in sometimes.
Louise Spence: You don't remember if you went with the same friends or anything like that?
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:17.000
Louise Spence: How does--
Claire Collins Harvey: [[cross talk]]--You see about the time I got moving, growing age according to my family, I was going away to college.
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:20.000
Claire Collins Harvey: I was going to school at Tou. [abbr. Tougaloo]
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:27.000
Louise Spence: They would show movies--
Claire Collins Harvey: --I took my freshmen year at Tou [abbr. Tougaloo], as well as my master [[inaudible]]
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:32.000
Pearl Bowser: Did they ever show movies on college campus?
Claire Collins Harvey: Yes, yes because there was a lot of--
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:39.000
Claire Collins Harvey: you see Touga [Tougaloo} was then 7 miles from Jackson that was like 20 some odd minutes-- because they had entertain the schools
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:46.000
Claire Collins Harvey: but it, it wouldn't be to my advantage to go that distance to a movie when one was right here.
Louise Spence: Uh-hum [[affirmative]]
Claire Collins Harvey: Close too.
00:34:46.000 --> 00:35:00.000
Claire Collins Harvey: But boarding school students went on--
Pearl Bowser: Uh, do you, you were on the, um, you did, you went to Spelman. That was in Atlanta. So you--
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:14.000
Pearl Bowser: --And you lived there, you lived on campus and my question was did they show films on campus?
Louise Spence: --Oh yes. Films at Spelman--
Pearl Bowser: --at Spelman. Did they ever show black films?
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:22.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Most likely because we a were black girls college, I don't really, what I remember most about Spelman is, Atlanta University.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:30.000
Claire Collins Harvey: The way that I was able to get my father to get me to Spelman instead of Rust where he went and graduated. He went on to University of Chicago.
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:35.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Majored in math and [[?]]. Let me give you a bit more history there.
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:45.000
Claire Collins Harvey: His father Isacc Collins who could neither read nor write. But he could figure.
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:58.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And he'd go down to the, whatever it is and sell your cotton and whatever it is you have. And he'd back away after they'd given him the money.
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:04.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And then he'd go back up the same. I never knew my grandfather. I knew my grandmother.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:20.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And he's special. He says "Now Mr. [[?]] now would you just figure that again?" He'd say "figure what?" "I'z don't get what you get." Say "where's your paper?" As he'd say "I got one here." And say "just please. Figure here."
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:27.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Everytime. He was a man who couldn't read and write. He could tell them [[?]]
Louise Spence: mmm [[affirmative]]
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:32.000
Claire Collins Harvey: But my father had understanding. My father could take columns of numbers and add them.
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:36.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Uhm, without even, only mental arithmatic.
Louise Spence: mmm [[affirmative]]
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:41.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Something special. But daddy went from Rust to the University of Chicago.
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:47.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Majoring in math. So that gave him that sort of [[?]]
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:51.000
Pearl Bowser: And how is it that you got to Spelman and not Rust?
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:59.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Well, my daddy wanted to [[?]] [laughter]
00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:12.000
Claire Collins Harvey: cause he sure wanted me at Rust. And years since I'm doing this that and the other and he turns to me and says, my dad, tryin' to-- he wanted twelve children. Six boys and six girls.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:20.000
Claire Collins Harvey: And when it was just me, he let mother [[?]]. There wasn't enough food for one child. So I've always been tryin' to make it up to him.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.000
Claire Collins Harvey: cause we didn't have his twelve children and [[?]]
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:30.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Rust College, um--
00:37:36.000 --> 00:40:00.000
They invited me to be a trustee there. Some years after he died I said yes.I said if many many years and ...in a way that...I knew my father would be pleased. Now, from a standpoint of sputinum... what was the question you asked me for a second? Did you seek films on campus and how is it that you got to build experiment? Oh yeah, that's right. Well, I was able to convince my dad who always treated me, not pettish, you know. I was supposed to... He found...I was able to convince him on the basis that it was... and all in the multiple institutions and you can take photos in the various places, when I just yield to one thing by going. So he finally bought into it and so I can go to high school... go to class... XX brass band and later to the... you know. but I was able to convince him... My father and I... and later into...history and was able to convince him... Did I ever finish when I was in a bus with the students and they said come sit in the back. and cubs in the back? was it ever a conflict in your family with your religious beliefs and you wanting to going to the movies? no because they were educated, my mother was educated, sister was business XX, father was you know. So they had no problem...did they go to movies themselves...? did they go to movies themselves?sometimes when sometimes it was special. I don7t know what their special... yes, they would go to movies occasionally.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Something special is coming.
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:06.000
Pearl Bowser: Not as big deal in the movies.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.000
Louise Spence: That's what we're studying.
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.000
Pearl Bowser: Today, it's a very important part of umm, you know,
00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:15.000
Pearl Bowser: our history, and we're just beginning to unearth the fact that
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:18.000
Pearl Bowser: we were more than just minor participants in it.
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:22.000
Pearl Bowser: We're behind the camera, as well as in front of the camera.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:26.000
Louise Spence: And, uh, and we're certainly a large part of the audience-
Claire Collins Harvey: Yes. Yes.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:30.000
Pearl Bowser: for an extended period. Well, we were always a large part of the audience.
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:33.000
Claire Collins Harvey: That's about the only entertainment you could get.
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:34.000
Pearl Bowser: Right, right, right. And, um-
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:36.000
Claire Collins Harvey: The church, isn't it?
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:43.000
Pearl Bowser: Mm-hmm. And it's-
Claire Collins Harvey: Ooh. Some of the characters in those days in the movies.
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:46.000
Pearl Bowser: Um, who, you mean the actors, or?
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:50.000
Claire Collins Harvey: Actors, certainly.
Louise Spence: Would you like to see a part of a movie?
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:51.000
Claire Collins Harvey: May I?
Louise Spence: Sure.
Claire Collins Harvey: Why wouldn't we-
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:55.000
Pearl Bowser: Yeah, the one we are watching, which is an Oscar Micheaux film that was
00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:02.000
Pearl Bowser: made in 1920, and uh some of the characters in this film were from the theater.
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:08.000
Pearl Bowser: Um, some were, well most of them were from the theater, and some went on to work in Hollywood
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:14.000
Pearl Bowser: films, like Lee Whipper, um, was in,-- It's on.
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:17.000
Louise Spence: Would you turn it off please?
Claire Collins Harvey: Turn it off please, she said.
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:26.472
Pearl Bowser: Um, Lee Whipper- Lee Whipper was, was one.
