Theresa Holmes, 1993, June, Tape 2, Side 1
Web Video Text Tracks Format (WebVTT)
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Theresa Holmes: My name is Theresa Duncans Holmes.
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Pearl Bowser: And would you mind telling us how old you are?
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Theresa Holmes: I'm 81.
Theresa Holmes: I was 81 in January, January 13th, 1913.
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Pearl Bowser: And where were you born?
Theresa Holmes: Cleveland, Ohio.
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Louise Spence: And umm - when - at what age and when did you come to Roanoke?
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Louise Spence: My mother and father came back - well I'll start this way. When my mother was young, they didn't have a high school in Roanoke. So, she went to Virginia State for high school, and in the summer, she resided in Cleveland with relatives to study music. In the meantime, she met my, met my father, and fell and love and her [laughter] she's a teenager, so they lived with his relatives, and my people had a fit. She was the only child, you know, so she was four, and they came here to Roanoke to live.
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Which then, we lived um, uh, Chestnut. Chestnut. That's where the Black community was back over in those days. And that was in 1915. And, uh, my father was dissatisfied with Roanoke so he went back to Cleveland, and he got a divorce and he married again. Later my mother married again. Then, people bought the property up on Gelman[?]. People were moving over this neighborhood, you know, started to move over...over...well some families were already back from the, say, ninth, tenth, ninth, seventh, and sixth.
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But on this neighborhood, people were moving in, um, to Wells. And, uh, we, I went to school at Harrison where I had the Harrison [[?]] that is when I first went to school at six years old. Then they changed - you know how they relocate you to Gainesboro, and my mother died [laughter] because the toilets were outdoors, and they were wooden. And you know how parents did like most parents did contact everyone they know - knew - to see if they could have me transferred back.
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But once the judgment is passed by the powers that be, they can't do it for one, you know -
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Pearl Bowser: Right, Right.
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Theresa Holmes: - without the others. So I remained at Gainesboro for about two years, then back to Har - err - Harrison. And by that time, they had built the first Addison - Lucy Addison. So I graduated - I was sick for a couple of years, but I graduated in 1933 from, uh, the first Lucy Addison. And then, after a couple of years, I went to Saint Paul in Lawrenceville for two years. '35 and, um, '38 my mother decided that she wanted to make some changes, so she moved to Brooklyn. St. - 88 St. James Place.
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Pearl Bowser: Oh I know that. I know that very well.
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Theresa Holmes: We took a house there. So I would - went there with her, and, uh, while I was there, well, I married and everything. It was a disaster, but anyway.
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Pearl Bowser:
Louise Spence: [Laughter]
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Theresa Holmes: My mother stayed there until her mother was ill, and she came back in '44. Well, constantly, you know, came back, but to live at 315. And her mother died in '46, her gra-, my grandfather died, and then my grandmother died, and my mother married Mr. [?] and she moved here. So, my mother got sick for the last time in '65, so I moved back in '65.
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Pearl Bowser: Mm-hm.
Theresa Holmes: So I've been here ever since.
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Pearl Bowser: Oh, good. That's a good place for us to stop because I want to -
[SILENCE]
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Louise Spence: So -
Pearl Bowser: Okay, go ahead.
Louise Spence: Your, your grandmother lived at 315...
Theresa Holmes: Uh huh.
Louise Spence: ...the whole time, she...
Theresa Holmes: Yes.
Louise Spence: ...she didn't move?
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Theresa Holmes: Yes, uh huh.
Louise Spence: I see.
Theresa Holmes: She died in, uh,
[SILENCE] ...see, my mother came back in '44, she died in '46.
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Pearl Bowser: When you were, when you were in, when you left Roanoke, with your mother and you moved back to
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Theresa Holmes: Moved to...
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Pearl Bowser: You moved to Brooklyn, that was in, -- in the '40s?
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Theresa Holmes: That was in '38.
Pearl Bowser: '38. Did you - did you go to the movies...
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when you were there? Did you...
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Theresa Holmes: Oh Yes. I love movies.
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[Everyone Laughs].
Theresa Holmes: And I'm going to - and here, I've been to two or three in the years I've been back since '65
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Theresa Holmes: when someone took me, but, see they don't have any downtown.
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Theresa Holmes: And the transportation and the hours are not convenient for a person that's by themselves.
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Pearl Bowser: Right, when you were in New York, did you ever see any of the kinds of films that your mother was in, or was shot in the house here?
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Theresa Holmes: Oh no. They - I really don't remember seeing any black movies during the years I was...in '38 to '65.
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Theresa Holmes: And they may have had them, but I can't remember any. I really can't.
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Theresa Holmes: Now I don't say they didn't have them, and not that people - Black people weren't in movies,
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Theresa Holmes: but not Black movies like they ha- you know.
Pearl Bowser: Yeah, yeah.
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Louise Spence: When you were in Roanoke before you went to Brooklyn, did you go to the movies here in Roanoke?
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Theresa Holmes: Oh yes.
Louise Spence: Yeah?
Theresa Holmes: Oh yeah.
Louise Spence: What theater did you go to?
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Theresa Holmes: Well, we had the Virginian - we had two theaters at one time, but the Virginian was a - think that was the last one.
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Theresa Holmes: It was, well, High Street, where there's a vacant lot there now.
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Theresa Holmes: And uh, but that was the only - at one time it was another theater where is on Henr--on First street--well Henry Street, which is boarded up.
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Theresa Holmes: And, the second, at the Virginian, it's - well it's a parking lot. But those were the two spots where they had colored theaters.
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Theresa Holmes: And they had, you know, that was our thea- and then there was a theater downtown, the Roanoke theater, which you had to climb the stairs to sit in that gallery, and it was really a climb.
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Louise Spence: Did you go there very often, to the Roanoke?
Theresa Holmes: Well, yes.
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Louise Spence: You didn't mind climbing?
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Theresa Holmes: No.
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Louise Spence: [Laughter]
Theresa Holmes: [Laughter] Not if it's a movie!
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Louise Spence: [Laughter]
Theresa Holmes: I didn't mind it at all!
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Louise Spence: Um, do you remember the Straham Theater? Or you were too young then, perhaps?
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Theresa Holmes: Straham? Wha- what's the -
Louise Spence: I think they called it the Straham the - before it was called the Virginian, the same theater
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Theresa Holmes: Well it was - see, I was living in Brooklyn.
Louise Spence: I see. this is -- the Straham theater was in the early '20s.
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Theresa Holmes: Well if it was the early '20s then I was there.
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Louise Spence: Mm-hm.
Theresa Holmes: I was there. Wherever they have a thea-
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And there was only two spots that they had there right on Union Street. Yes, I went.
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Louise Spence: Was Henry Street called First Street then?
Theresa Holmes: It was First Street, but was never called First Street, it was called Henry Street.
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Louise Spence: Oh, is Henry a name from the community?
Theresa Holmes: Well, I should say so.
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Louise Spence: [Laughter]
Theresa Holmes: First street-
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Man in Background: Henry Street, uh, First Street was usually a white side...
Theresa Holmes: White.
Louise Spence: Ah.
Man in Background: And Henry Street was used as the black side
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Theresa Holmes: When you'd come over the bridge - after you'd come over the Bridge, see, it was First, b-but it was Henry Street.
Louise Spence: I see.
Theresa Holmes: After you'd come over the bridge.
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Louise Spence: So everyone in the community called it Henry Street?
Theresa Holmes: Henry Street. That was the name, Henry Street. And it was a thriving community.
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Louise Spence: Could you tell us a little bit about it?
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Theresa Holmes: Well, they had very nice - they had two hotels...that's where any of the b-bands that came here, or delegates for conventions, you know, outstanding conventions, Elks, Masons.
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Well they'd stay in homes, but they had the hotels because that was for - in those days, that was the only place to stay. There was no motels or things like that.
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Louise Spence: Do you remember the name of the motel-the hotels?
Theresa Holmes: Um, Dumas[?] and...
Man in Background: Um, Palace
Theresa Holmes: Palace. Palace Hotel. By Mr. - Mr. Finlay, did Mr. Finlay - and Gill's. Gill.
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Man in Background: Right.
Theresa Holmes: Finlay and what - the first - I think it was Gill and Finlay, had different owners.
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And the Dumas, well it was by- the Jeffersons owned that at first, and then it was sold to the Barlowes.
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Theresa Holmes: But that's where all the major people came--stayed when they had conventions. Duke Ellington and Cab Calloway, any of the, you know, large bands, stayed.
Pearl Bowser: And the, uh, did you know who the owners were--not by name, but were they people in the community?
Theresa Holmes: Ye- well that's what--yes, the Gills and I can't think of which Gill cause that was a large family then. But, there's Mr. Finlay.
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Pearl Bowser: What else did, what else did they do besides owning the hotel?
Theresa Holmes: Well, they were influential--they were property owners, and they--that was what they ran, you know, because they were affluent enough to just make that a project, you know, full-time job is what they did on otherwise.
Pearl Bowser: Were they in real estate, by any chance?
Theresa Holmes: Well, something like that, mm-hm. [Affirmatively]. And the Jeffersons were a large family, and railroad--some of the sons were, well three or four--four, six, four, five of the brothers were railroad people, and the elderly people--the oldest, well, I guess the father not the mother, cause I never...
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But the father and older brothers, they ran the hotel until it--they sold it to the Barlowes.
Pearl Bowser: We're curious about-- [Background whirring] The--your show talked about getting financial support to make the movies that he shot here. And we were curious if the community in some way...
Theresa Holmes: Well...
Louise Spence: supported--
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Theresa Holmes: I wouldn't know that--
Pearl Bowser: Oh.
Theresa Holmes: ...because like I said--as I said, I was very young then, and of course in your twenties you consider yourself grown. [Laughter].
Pearl Bowser: [Laughter]
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Theresa Holmes: But I was, like every summer, I would either go to Washington or Cleveland to visit friends. And then, sometimes, friends would take me with their children because I was an only child to visit other places like Stam[?] and New York. I was--I went to New York when I was twelve years old.
Louise Spence: That's exciting.
Theresa Holmes: Philadelphia.
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Louise Spence: Could you tell us a little bit about what it was like to go to the movies on Henry Street?
Theresa Holmes: Well, it was very nice. You'd walk through Henry Street, and everybody would, "How do you do, ma'am," or whatever. I don't care what age you were. And my family was a well-known family, and everyone called the, you know, Mom Petts[?] and Papa Charlie [Laughter]. And she would bow her head, and everything, and no one was fresh, you know. They'd tip their hats good evening, or whatever. And no matter how small you were or what age, you'd always be recognized, you know, in some form. And no one--there was no shooting.
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I mean, they had little places in the back where they could--where they had whatever they had. But it was completely--I mean it was nothing perfect, but it was clean, and everybody recognized you. And the people weren't--that was to the Barlowes when they took it over, bought the hotel. Then they had a drug store right where the building--as you go over the bridge, it's closed up now. And they had a pharmacy that was--they bought and made in here to be a pharmacist. It was our first black pharmacist. And we had a pharmacy up a level of Gilman[?] Dr. Brooks, so that was two pharmacists. And restaurants and the two hotels.
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Theresa Holmes: We had a library on Gainesboro Hill, and they had the "Y"
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Theresa Holmes: on, uh, where you see the vacant lot by the First Baptist Church sits?
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Theresa Holmes: That was the first ladies' "Y", right there.
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Pearl Bowser: Did you go to social events at the "Y"?
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Theresa Holmes: Yes. And, in my day, they had lovely socials with clubs, you know.
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Theresa Holmes: And they'd build homes on Harrison, and they brought the bands in.
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Theresa Holmes: We had a local band, Lockley's Band.
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Theresa Holmes: And when the clubs had their festival; what they called festival, and we called like an anniversary;
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Theresa Holmes: the girls would wear party dresses, and the young men would wear dark suits.
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Theresa Holmes: They had ice cream made in flowers. [[Laughing by Louise]] Oh, it was so nice.
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Theresa Holmes: And they had so many parties at my grandmother's home.
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Theresa Holmes: And we sent out invitations. And they had entertainment.
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Theresa Holmes: Everything-- The menu was in French. We didn't know how to read it. [[Laughter by all]]
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Louise Spence: What was your grandmother's name?
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Theresa Holmes: Mary S. Thompson.
Louise Spence: Thompson.
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Louise Spence: Did you every remember if the every showed movies at the "Y"?
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Theresa Holmes: Well, I really don't know, but we would-- I don't really
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Theresa Holmes: remember seeing any movies at the "Y".
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Theresa Holmes: I can say that maybe some other groups did have it, you know.
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Theresa Holmes: But the "Y" that I ended up going to as a girl, they would have field trips.
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Theresa Holmes: We had teachers [[bring us round]] about, we'd walk up past Salem to different places,
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Theresa Holmes: walk to Harlan Dispensary, Hughes from the First Baptist Church would take the group to Harlan's in the South,
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Theresa Holmes: what we call field trips now, we called a hike, a hike. We called it a hike in our day.
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Theresa Holmes: And we would leave early in the morning, and the ones who would be tired, too tired, the cars would come and pick the children up.
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Theresa Holmes: But that was some of the focus things, you know, that we looked forward doin' vacations.
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Theresa Holmes: And then, the churches had Vacation Bible School.
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Pearl Bowser: Among the parties that you describe, in your mother's house, did they ever entertain?
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Theresa Holmes: No, this was just local, ya know, just like all local.
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Pearl Bowser: Mhm, none of the people who came in, say,
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[SILENCE]
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Theresa Holmes: the actresses, or actors, there were no, there were no social engagements arranged--
Pearl Bowser: No.
Louise Spence: around them.
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Louise Spence: You were telling us before about the film that was made at your grandmother's house. Could you tell us about that again?
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Theresa Holmes: Well, well, really it's like I said, I was away on vacation, but when I got-- came back, when I came home,
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Theresa Holmes: everybody saw me, "Oh, you know, they had a film! Micheaux was here, and they made a film in your grandmother's house! They made a film in your grandmother's house!
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Theresa Holmes: I said, "What? It was my grandfather's, too," but everybody say it was my grandmother's house. [[Laughing]]
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Theresa Holmes: So then, she told me, she said, "Well, yes, they used the living room."
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Theresa Holmes: Well, off the living room was a sun parlor and the the library, and then the dining room, but there's a large, uh, reception hall, like I said, with a fireplace.
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Theresa Holmes: But they only used the living room, and the stairway was wide, ya know.
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Theresa Holmes: The fireplace was in there, and the landing upstairs, you go to-- you went to her bedroom.
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Theresa Holmes: Everything in hers. Brings back, ya know? [[Laughing by all]]
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Theresa Holmes: Listen, when I think of this women's lib, uh, my grandmother must have been ahead of her time because, I guess, she was ahead her-- 00:17:29]
Theresa Holmes: but most-- [[interrupted]] I don't mean in, uh, in slurs, but most black people are cultured to me because
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Theresa Holmes: that's what I said, you said and I did, were head of their household.
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Theresa Holmes: Both how the money was spent, what they do or what they could do or what they couldn't do.
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Pearl Bowser: Umm.
[SILENCE] [00:17:49
Theresa Holmes: So, I mean, when I see one and they knew about checkbooks, they knew about savings, and everything, ya know.
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Louise Spence: Do you know how the movie people got to know your grandmother?
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Theresa Holmes: No, I don't. I don't know who or when they came to Roanoke, or who recommended or, ya know, [00:18:07
Theresa Holmes: how they were, how she was approached or anything. But all I know when I came back, there was all the talking [[unintelligible]].
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Louise Spence: Was your house like all the others on the street? Was it much [[Cross Talk]] nicer or--
Theresa Holmes: [[Cross Talk]] No.
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Theresa Holmes: Well, all the house in that day, this-- Wells Avenue, Gilmer Avenue,
Theresa Holmes: [[softly spoken]] and I missed the Patton area: 6th Avenue, 7th Avenue,--
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Theresa Holmes: Well there really weren't any brick homes. But they were all nice, very nice.
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Theresa Holmes: And everybody kept their yard [[inaudible]]. And uh, Sunday people would dress their best and go to church, or whatever, ya know?
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Theresa Holmes: And they were all working class people, home, ya know, at home or in business.
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Theresa Holmes: His mother was a teacher in the school system, then kindergarten at home.
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Theresa Holmes: My son graduated fr--[[chuckling]] his mother--
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Theresa Holmes: [[laughter]] Can I show you a picture?
Pearl Bowser: Sure!
Louise Spence: Sure. That would be nice.
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{SPEAKER name=Theresa Holmes"} His mother, she had their little Commencement,
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[SILENCE] [[They are looking at the photo]]
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Louise Spence: [[Laughs]] AW!!! How dear!
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Theresa Holmes: and he had a little speech to say,
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[[Pearl and Louise speaking softly in background]]
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Theresa Holmes: So, uh, ok, but uh they were like a-- So, I really don't know
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Theresa Holmes: when we were talking about, ya know, what uh, who talked to her, how he got in touch, ya know, about it.
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Louise Spence: But if he were walking down the street, would he have noticed your grandmother's house as being different --
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Theresa Holmes: Well, I don't know, like I said, the neighborhoods have deteriorated like the most everything now, ya know,
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Theresa Holmes: and all over the United States , in a certain sense, and this neighborhood is considered one of the finest.
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Theresa Holmes: And my grandmother's house set back; a wide long-- a wide porch.
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Theresa Holmes: And in the summer, she had that jar there and the one in the hallway set on the porch, which someone broke the top off of it.
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Theresa Holmes: And she had a large fern. She had, what ya call a "green thumb."
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Theresa Holmes: she and my grandfather. And it was a large house, say 14 rooms, larger living room, sun porch,
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Theresa Holmes: a library, dining room, kitchen, and bedrooms upstairs, bath up and down and back porches.
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Pearl Bowser: How many children were there?
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Theresa Holmes: Only my mother.
Pearl Bowser: Mmm.
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Theresa Holmes: And my mother and me, we were spoiled! [[Laughs]]
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Pearl Bowser: [[Laughter]]
Louise Spence: Did, did you live with your mother and you lived with your grandmother, then?
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Theresa Holmes: My grandmother.
Louise Spence: Mmm.
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Theresa Holmes: It's like I said, she and father separated. She wasn't going to go back, she gonna stay home with momma. Then she married.
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Louise Spence: Were the other houses around here 14 rooms, as well?
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Theresa Holmes: Well that's not quite 14 but it's a large house.
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Theresa Holmes: And this house is exactly [[background noise]] the way it was when we moved; this house was here when we moved over here on Gilman.
Pearl Bowser: Mm hmm.
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Theresa Holmes: And the house Mr. Heller's house, they were-- that was a family-- Those houses are packed--
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Theresa Holmes: I'm going to say most of them, but some of them where they were then, that's when we moved over here, in the 20s.
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Louise Spence: And you were saying that her house was set back. [[Cross Talk]] It had a little yard in the front?
Theresa Holmes: [[Cross Talk]] Yeah, it was set back.
00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:37.000
Theresa Holmes: Oh, it was a lot of yard. Her yard was larger than this yard.
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:42.000
Theresa Holmes: It was divided in three parts. It was like here a "v", and then two sides.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:52.000
Theresa Holmes: And then the side on the right, on the left was very narrow, and the back was large, behind was large.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:53.000
Pearl Bowser: Did they have a car?
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:58.000
Theresa Holmes: Oh, yes. We had a car. I think the first one was a Chandler. [[mixed laughter]]
Louise Spence: Chandler. [[Laughs]]
00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:06.000
Theresa Holmes: And then the next one they had was a [[Noon?]], and the last one was a Packard. You don't hear those names no more.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:13.000
Pearl Bowser: It sounds like there were two generations of families living in that house?
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:21.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, uh, my grandmother uh-- My mother married-- Well, my mother married 3--
00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:24.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, my mother married my father and they divorced,
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:31.000
Theresa Holmes: and then my mother married a Mr. Hostin from, um, Moundsville and then my mother divorced,
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:39.000
Theresa Holmes: then my mother moved away in 38', and she came back and got her divorce from Mr. Johnson.
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:49.000
Theresa Holmes: And after my grandmother died, she married again Mr. Fox, and then she moved here. [[Laughs]]
00:22:49.000 --> 00:23:04.000
Theresa Holmes: But getting back to the homes; every house on this street, and any wedding in the black community, they had to go right up and down this street, and blow and honk.
Louise Spence: [[Laughs]]
Pearl Bowser: Any wedding.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:12.000
Theresa Holmes: But this all over from Wells all the way back to where the hospital; Chestnut perhaps; the houses, if they were small,
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:17.000
Theresa Holmes: they were nice, but everyone kept the house nice.
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:22.000
Theresa Holmes: In the later years, in the 30's, then they started to building brick.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:30.000
Theresa Holmes: I think Dr. Plater built a brick house cross from the 1st Baptist Church,
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.000
Theresa Holmes: the old First Baptist Church, which it's not there anymore; it's been demolished.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:40.000
Theresa Holmes: And, uh, Dr. [[Lowell?]] built the brick house down the street,
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:47.000
Theresa Holmes: but most homes were not brick, but they were well kept and well, [[nice?]].
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:54.000
Theresa Holmes: And now we are all poor [[background noise]] and can't keep it up, but we have. [[Laughs]] [[unintelligible]]
Pearl Bowser and Louise Spence: [[laughter]]
00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:00.000
Louise Spence: Do you know if, um, if your grandmother was paid for the use of her house?
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:01.000
Theresa Holmes: I really don't know.
00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:03.000
Louise Spence: She didn't talked about it much?
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:09.000
Theresa Holmes: She never talked about it. She would just, ya know, it was experience, and she was just happy
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:14.000
Theresa Holmes: to have, ya know, compensated someone like that. [[Cross Talk]] She was like that.
Louise Spence: [[Cross Talk]] Would she-- She was-- Um huh.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:20.000
Theresa Holmes: They were both were. My grandfather was a railroad man. He worked for Norfolk & Western.
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:22.000
Theresa Holmes: He was a Pullman Porter for 44 years.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:32.000
Theresa Holmes: And so, uh, like I say, uh, anything in the depression, [[background noise]] it really didn't strike us too much,
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.000
Theresa Holmes: ya know, because we always had.
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:41.000
Theresa Holmes: Do you know that Oscar Micheaux, the film maker, used to be a Pullman Porter, as well?
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:42.000
Theresa Holmes: Is that so?
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.000
Louise Spence: I wonder if that is how he made the connections with your grandfather?
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.000
Theresa Holmes: I don't know, maybe so!
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.280
Pearl Bowser: That was a much earlier --
00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:01.000
Theresa Holmes: When my grandfather started off with the foundry, he always talked about fifty cents a day.
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.000
Theresa Holmes: Fifty cents a day.
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.000
Theresa Holmes: And he worked up from the foundry to the railroad.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:11.000
Theresa Holmes: One time he was a cook on the railroad; had parlor cars, and he made--
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:17.000
Theresa Holmes: He'd cook for-- and then he went from the parlor car into Pullman Porter.
00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:22.000
Louise Spence: Do you know if any local people were also in that movie at all? Did anyone [[Cross Talk]]
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:27.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, as like-- as I said, Mrs. Borden, but she's moved-- she moves from Lexington.
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:31.000
Theresa Holmes: But I imagine she-- Louise Borden, but I imagine she's--
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:37.000
Theresa Holmes: I think that was her name, Louise Borden. But it was so long ago.
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:40.000
Louise Spence: And--
Theresa Holmes: As I said it was in the '20s
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.000
Louise Spence: And Mrs. Borden,-- You were waving your hand a minute ago. Can you tell us--
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:51.000
Louise Spence: Can you tell us why you were waving?
Theresa Holmes: Well, that was-- I was trying to wave it cause she lived at the [[?]] apartment.
Louise Spence: I see.
Theresa Holmes: That had been just built.
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.000
Theresa Holmes: And she lived on the top floor.
00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000
Louise Spence: That's the brick building down - down the way?
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:56.000
Theresa Holmes: Yes, right here on the corner.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:09.000
Louise Spence: I see.
Theresa Holmes: And we had never had a brick building before. The [[?]] one of the dentist brothers. Well there was two dentists, but one of them built that building.
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.000
Louise Spence: Do you know anything about Mrs. Borden?
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.000
Theresa Holmes: No, I don't.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.000
Louise Spence: She's not from Roanoke?
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:29.000
Theresa Holmes: No, she's - I think it was Lexington. And he only had doctors and teachers living in it at that time.
Louise Spence: So do - was a - was Louise Borden a teacher, do you think?
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:30.000
Theresa Holmes: I don't think so.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:39.000
Louise Spence: Can you tell us a little bit about what Louise Borden looked like?
00:26:39.000 --> 00:30:34.290
Theresa Holmes: I don't think so.
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:49.000
Louise Spence: I was wondering if you mind going back a little bit, to before you went to Brooklyn, and I was asking you before about going to the movies and Henry Street,
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:53.000
Louise Spence: and you were describing what it was like to walk down Henry Street.
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000
Theresa Holmes: Oh, everyone was so courteous.
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:56.000
Louise Spence: Yeah
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:02.000
Theresa Holmes: So courteous. And a business was, you know, it was really a business community. Very flashy.
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:08.000
Louise Spence: H-- how may blocks of Henry Street was-- were business blocks, approximately?
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:12.000
[SILENCE]
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:17.000
Louise Spence: When you went to stroll down Henry Street, did you stroll down the business area or the residential area, as well?
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:22.000
Theresa Holmes: It wasn't- well, when you hit this corner, you know, go down two blocks.
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:31.000
Theresa Holmes: Let's do; one, two; with the funeral home, and you turn that corner. It was all business.
00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:34.000
Theresa Holmes: Dale had a restaurant at the corner,
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:42.000
Theresa Holmes: and uh, as I said, Doc-- now Doctor Klater had his first office right at that corner,
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.000
Theresa Holmes: until he moved to that building across right over there on Gainesboro.
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:50.000
Theresa Holmes: Then the "Y", they had the first ladies "Y" right there,
00:31:50.000 --> 00:32:01.000
Theresa Holmes: and go up and there was an insurance office at Wells and Gil-- First Street,
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:03.000
Theresa Holmes: then they had a restaurant there.
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:13.000
Theresa Holmes: And Dr. Br-- On the corner, was a grocery store. Dr. Brooks had a Druggist,
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:22.000
Theresa Holmes: and then there were a few other businesses, and then they had, I guess, maybe that was the Strand.
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:27.000
Theresa Holmes: Excuse me just a minute. [[Theresa gets up, makes sound from microphone]] [[Tape shuts off]]
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:33.000
Louise Spence: [[Tapes starts up]] --family or your friends?
Theresa Holmes: Friends, or by myself.
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:38.000
Theresa Holmes: I've always mostly been a [[noise distorts word]].
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:46.000
Theresa Holmes: And uh, I guess, with the last one, I remember is The Virginian. Next to where I sit-- You know,
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:51.000
Theresa Holmes: where ya get off the bridge, next to the building that's owned there,
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:56.000
Theresa Holmes: but the building is boarded up where the theater was is a parking lot.
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:59.000
Theresa Holmes: And the High Street Church was across the street.
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:03.000
Louise Spence: So you used to go alone, and no one thought that was--
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:04.000
Theresa Holmes: No! I mean,
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:11.000
Theresa Holmes: I've always, like I said, been mostly by myself. And then there was the group I grew up with that
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:19.000
Theresa Holmes: they would sometimes meet me, but no one never thought anything of it.
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:21.000
Louise Spence: Did ya get all dressed up to go to the movies
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, you know, we only had little cotton dresses, similar to what they have today.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:30.000
Theresa Holmes: You didn't wear pants in those days.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:40.000
Pearl Bowser: Was it an occasion going to the movies?
Theresa Holmes: No. No.
Pearl Bowser: A special occasion?
Louise Spence: You would just drop in on your way to shopping or something like that?
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:46.000
Theresa Holmes: No, it was just that I loved the movies. And, uh, I never was respons-- I had money
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:49.000
Theresa Holmes: because my grandfather would give me, and my grandmother,
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:53.000
Theresa Holmes: well I should say, she would give me, cause if I wanted to go someplace
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:56.000
Theresa Holmes: I would write a note and stick it under the door.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:47.000
Louise Spence: [[Makes sound of approval]]
00:33:47.000 --> 00:34:00.000
Theresa Holmes: and she would stick one in here, "What do you want to do or where do you want to go?"
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.000
Theresa Holmes: You could see those piercin' eyes. Cause I said, "Well, I wanted to go so-and-so."
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:09.000
Theresa Holmes: She'd never turned me down, but I'd stand there to ask, you know.
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:14.000
Theresa Holmes: But my mother, after she married the 3rd husband,
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:19.000
Theresa Holmes: she moved away and she lived down several places on Harrison and Gilmer.
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:24.000
Theresa Holmes: But my grandmother was like my mother. Same with me.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:29.000
Theresa Holmes: When my husband and I broke up, he went his way, and I stayed in Brooklyn.
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.000
Theresa Holmes: My mother raised my son and brought him here.
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:34.000
Theresa Holmes: Seems like that's passed down from generation to generation. [[Chuckling by several people]]
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.000
Louise Spence: But your grandfather gave you money freely?
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Theresa Holmes: Yes! And my grandmother. I hadn't-- I never wanted for anything.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:46.000
Louise Spence: Did you have ice cream and-- [[Cross Talk]] when you went to the movies, too?
Theresa Holmes: Yes, [[Cross Talk]] I had everything.
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:51.000
Theresa Holmes: Yes! Popcorn. Popcorn I think is my favorite, and a Coca-Cola.
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:55.660
Pearl Bowser: When you were going to move--
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.000
Pearl Bowser: What-wh How did the church feel about the movies?
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:08.000
Theresa Holmes: Well the church didn't-- I never heard the church say anything about the movies,
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Theresa Holmes: because they was just a form of recreation,
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:16.000
Theresa Holmes: and uh, I never heard the church say anything about the movies,
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:20.000
Theresa Holmes: because you went at a certain time you go back home at a certain time.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.000
Theresa Holmes: You know what I mean? You weren't out after. It was just understood.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:29.000
Theresa Holmes: They didn't tell you not to, but you knew that, uh--
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:34.000
Theresa Holmes: in the summer, well there was no school, you know, but unless you went to Bible Band,
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:38.000
Theresa Holmes: and that was out after, you know, only so many weeks.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:43.000
Theresa Holmes: 'Cause, I mean, as I said before, during the summer, most summers, I went away.
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:51.000
Theresa Holmes: But, going back to the movies, it was just an ordinary thing for most people to--
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:54.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, I'll tell ya, I had more freedom than most people.
00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:00.000
Theresa Holmes: And I never wanted for anything. 'Course I didn't ask for anything
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:07.000
Theresa Holmes: that was out, that was out of reach, you know, that was a million dollars. [[Laughing]].
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:14.000
Pearl Bowser: Right. Well, the reason I asked, I wanted to know, did you go to the movies on a Sunday?
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:18.000
Theresa Holmes: Oh, no!
Pearl Bowser: Or only on Saturday?
Theresa Holmes: I don't think we had movies on a Sunday.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:20.000
Theresa Holmes: We didn't have movies on a Sunday.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.000
Theresa Holmes: I went to Sunday School - that was a, that was a must.
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:30.000
Theresa Holmes: You went to Sunday School, you went to 11 o'clock services, and we'd call it - they don't call it BYPU now,
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:38.000
Theresa Holmes: I think they call it BTU or something like that. When you went to BYPU, those 2 things every Sunday of your life.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:41.000
Louise Spence: [[Cross-talk]] Can you tell us what that was?
Theresa Holmes: Well, I'll get up and start with my grandmother.
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:48.000
Theresa Holmes: On Sunday, she used her diamond, best linen, and best dishes. Silk.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:54.000
Theresa Holmes: And she'd get up and cook, and when she finished breakfast, cookin' breakfast, her dinner was ready.
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.000
Theresa Holmes: And she's-- I'd always have to have her dressed.
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:03.000
SPEAKER name="Theresa Holmes"} We would go to Sunday School. We didn't leave out together; she would go first,
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.000
Theresa Holmes: and I would go down later.
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:10.000
Theresa Holmes: But she sang, she belonged to the Sunday School class, she sang on the choir.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.000
Theresa Holmes: She was president of so many clubs, and the Flower Club, and all.
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:21.000
Theresa Holmes: But myself, I was enjoying things, but you know, I wasn't--
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:26.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, someone has to be in the group, not a leader.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.000
Pearl Bowser: But the Sunday was full.
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:37.000
Theresa Holmes: The Sunday was full. You went to Sunday School; you went to 11 o'clock service; and you went to BYP.
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:44.000
Theresa Holmes: Now after I became 14 or 15 years, I went to Sunday School and went to 11 o'clock service,
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:49.000
Theresa Holmes: but I thought I was too grown to go to night service or B-- or to go to any evening service.
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:51.000
Pearl Bowser: What was the BYPU?
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:52.000
Theresa Holmes: It was--
Pearl Bowser: What did that stand for?
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:57.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, they discussed the Bible. Now what did it stand for?
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:00.000
Mr. Heller: Oh, uh, Baptist Young People's Union.
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:05.000
Theresa Holmes: We discussed the Bible, we sang, and like in the summertime they had-- we had--
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:09.000
Theresa Holmes: the church would have-- we had the get together with that group,
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:14.000
Theresa Holmes: and it would sponsor picnics, and it-- it was an enjoyable time.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:21.000
Theresa Holmes: And, you know, and you meet-- met friends. Now after a morning Sunday School, we would go to the pharmacy.
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:25.000
Theresa Holmes: We had another pharmacy right there on the corner, across from the Gainesboro Library.
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:32.000
Theresa Holmes: And everybody would have a soda or ice cream or whatever, then you go to 11 o'clock service;
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:34.000
Theresa Holmes: my little group that I was with.
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:37.000
Pearl Bowser: You had no time to go to the movies on Sunday. [[Laughing]]
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.000
Theresa Holmes: We didn't go to movies; that was a thing I'd never heard of.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.000
Theresa Holmes: And you never wanted to go. And I loved to read, I had my books.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:47.000
Louise Spence: What kind of movies did you see when you did go to the movies?
00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:49.000
Theresa Holmes: Whatever they had.
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:55.000
Louise Spence: Did they play the same movies on Henry Street that played at the Roanoke Theater?
00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:00.050
Theresa Holmes: Now no, I don't think so, but they were same type, you know.
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:15.000
Louise Spence: Did you ever see any films in church, not movies you saw in a commercial theater,
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.000
Pearl Bowser: but did they ever use movies for educational purposes?
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:25.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, they had times when they had educational movies downstairs in the Sunday school.
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:30.000
Louise Spence: Can you recall? [[Cross talk]]
Theresa Holmes: No, I really can't recall it.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000
Theresa Holmes: But, I do know they did have that.
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:37.000
Theresa Holmes: And then they'd have little bazaars in the church, downstairs in the Sunday school.
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:47.000
Theresa Holmes: And they had nothing upstairs but weddings, Sunday services, or special services: a prayer meeting, you know.
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.000
[[silence]]
00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:57.000
Theresa Holmes: But, they were very-- most Black churches, even 'til today, they never have anything like that on a Sunday.
00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:03.000
Theresa Holmes: I mean, here. I don't know about other places.
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:04.000
Louise Spence: Movies were for entertainment.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.000
Theresa Holmes: Yeah, entertainment.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:09.000
Louise Spence: Now, I was thinking of educational movies.
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:19.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, years ago I believe, I really can't say for certain, I believe they had an educational movie.
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.000
Theresa Holmes: But, I'm not--I won't say that-- I won't be positive.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000
Louise Spence: Okay.
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.000
Theresa Holmes: But, I think so.
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:31.000
Theresa Holmes: But they did, they would have speakers from out of town to come over.
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:35.000
Theresa Holmes: And they had concerts and had people to speak, you know.
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:40.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, all the churches did that, all the Black churches did that.
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.000
[SILENCE]
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:47.000
Louise Spence: Do you remember anything? Could you describe in any way
00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:55.000
Pearl Bowser: what these occasions might've been when they would have a speaker or a film?
00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:09.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, for Mother's Day and Women's Day and Men's Day.
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:14.000
Theresa Holmes: And, of course, always at Christmastime, we would have some form of program.
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:19.000
Theresa Holmes: You know, a Christmas procession.
00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:26.000
Theresa Holmes: They had-- even today, when they have the Christmas music,
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:34.000
Theresa Holmes: they, sometimes they have the-- how do I want to say--
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:36.000
[SILENCE]
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:40.000
Theresa Holmes: Jesus' birth. That's what I-- That's how-- you know.
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:45.000
Theresa Holmes: People would have the whole program from the time he was born,
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:51.000
Theresa Holmes: and people would be dressed like angels, and children would be dressed like angels,
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:55.000
Theresa Holmes: and Mary and Joseph and all.
00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:00.000
Theresa Holmes: They've always done that in my church and I think they do that in all the churches.
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.000
Theresa Holmes: In those days we'd call it Cantatas.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:12.000
Louise Spence: What about, not state fair, but there were fairs that were
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:16.530
Theresa Holmes: held every year, and it would be a Black--
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:28.000
Pearl Bowser: --did you experience, at the State Fair, and could you describe what--
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:34.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, I really don't remember having um, that fair. Did we have a black fair?
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:35.000
Unknown Speaker: Um, well we--
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:36.000
Theresa Holmes: Well we did-
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:44.000
Unknown Speaker: Two things- two things used to happen that I can recall. The first was a show, it was Washington [[?]], as we call it today.
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Theresa Holmes: Oh, yes.
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Unknown Speaker: And they would have a show called "Solace Green" from New Orleans.
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Unknown Speaker: I can remember that very distinctly, that came through every summer, somewhere in August.
00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:01.000
Unknown Speaker: Then they had what they would call a "City Fair", out at the stadium or the fairgrounds.
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:02.000
Pearl Bowser: The fairgrounds.
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:03.000
Theresa Holmes: Mhm
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:07.000
Unknown Speaker: That would come through usually about once a year,
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:11.000
Unknown Speaker: or every other year. Some years it didn't come through.
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:15.000
Unknown Speaker: But generally, every year they had. Some people went, some people didn't.
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:18.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, they had that in my day, too.
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:19.000
Unknown Speaker: Mhm.
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:22.000
Theresa Holmes: Yes [[Cross Talk]]
Unkown Speaker: [[Cross Talk]] Those were about the two things I can recall.
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:29.000
Pearl Bowser: I was interested in the fairs in your day, as you described it. [[Laughs]]
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:39.000
Pearl Bowser: Were there-- do you recall if any of this was ever filmed? If there was ever
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.000
Theresa Holmes: No
Pearl Bowser: people with cameras?
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:47.000
Theresa Holmes: In my day, there was not-- there was-- I mean people had those box cameras like for family or something.
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:53.000
Theresa Holmes: But the way that people film today, there was no such things like that in my day.
00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:00.000
Theresa Holmes: Maybe some families, and I always forget that there's so much history lost in family
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:05.000
Theresa Holmes: that we didn't take advantage-- well, we didn't know that. We didn't know that.
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:12.000
Theresa Holmes: Like to film the different things your children did or occasions and things like that.
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:13.000
Theresa Holmes: We really didn't know that.
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:17.000
Theresa Holmes: And there's so much history lost.
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:22.000
Pearl Bowser: Right. What about pageants that the church might [[Cross Talk]] have put on?
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:23.000
Theresa Holmes: [[Cross Talk]] Oh, well, I said
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Theresa Holmes: that all the churches had different pageants.
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:33.000
Theresa Holmes: Through the years, all the Black churches had pageants.
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:35.000
Theresa Holmes: And then they'd have a musical festival.
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:42.000
Theresa Holmes: Well, I don't know if you'd call it a music festival because it would just be for one day.
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:49.000
Theresa Holmes: And all different churches, for instance, my church had it, different churches would join in.
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:55.000
Theresa Holmes: And they would-- well, I guess you could say it was a song feast or whatever.
00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:57.000
Theresa Holmes: But uh, they would do that in my day.
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Theresa Holmes: You know, different churches would join in and the ministers would join, and the best singers,
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:10.000
Theresa Holmes: and the different choirs were all over, you know.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:15.000
Louise Spence: A real song fête, [[Cross Talk]] with different groups that would come in.
Theresa Holmes: [[Cross Talk]] Yes.
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:17.180
Theresa Holmes: They would always have-- That would always be on a Sunday evening.
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.000
[static noise]
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.688
[audio cuts off]
[SILENCE]
