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Transcription: [00:24:23]
{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Ah, within the analysis of the discourse.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Well, in that, I mean, from that
[00:24:29]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
And, I'm saying that, that Irwin's work can not, can not make an, an analysis of the work, within the discourse. He's working, he has a discourse more with himself then he has with the, ah,

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
That's true

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
asthetic discourse
[00:24:45]

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
OK, but you should, you should read his catalog at the Whitney which did indeed do that. It did do that. I mean It was the most analytical and in some ways did not succeed visually because of that.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Huh, huh [[affirmative]]
[00:24:57]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
But that, I mean that work was specifically calculated to do that, had within itself all those referential things. He did argue with himself in the presentation.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Huh, huh [[affirmative]]
[00:25:07]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
I thought that the weakness in that, was that. That you can be extremely didactic. He forgot that it was a work of art.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Well, I'm not, I can see that happening too.
[00:25:21]
You know, I mean that's the other problem too.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
I mean that's from my own judgment.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Sure, sure.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
You know. I hadn't the length to read a lot, but I did not want to stand there and read that stuff on the gallery walls.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Yeah
[00:25:31]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
It's not what art does for me. If I wanted to read that, I'd get a book and read it.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Oh, yeah. I know, sticks and stones.
[00:25:38]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
But almost everything I've seen of his lately has had that kind of, it's all in like nice handwriting.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Oh, really, I haven't seen that one.

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Big size work, and you have to.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
I haven't seen it.
[00:25:47]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
And I thought standing in the archi.., he was in the architectural structure show and I thought standing there "We've lost something". We've lost a sense of, what we understand art to be.
[00:25:58]


{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
It, no...

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Because he was giving me what a book is. What he was saying was quite interesting.

{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Huh, huh [[affirmative]]
[00:26:03]


{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
You know. And I didn't like the work at all, I mean, for some reason, and then he was going back on the theme, what is a work of art and what do we want from it, what did I expect from it? And what, what do you expect from it? And what your saying is real interesting. Because what you are saying is, I mean, for you there is some kind of [[?]] balance. And you are not going to just
[00:26:25]