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Transcription: [00:17:44]

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Yea because I think it's important not to overlay[[?]] that if it doesn't exist.

[00:17:47]
{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
There's a difference between taking that as a political position and taking it as an economy of need[[?]].

[00:17:53]
{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
And they may even result in having the same effect when they come from very different points of view.

[00:17:58]
{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Uh-huh

{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
They may result in the same effect [[??]]--

[00:18:02]
{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
I'm saying I'm liberating the person from the fact that he doesn't necessarily take my position.

[00:18:08]
{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
No no no he is. Yea sure.

[00:18:12]
{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
He's promoted to taking a position of his own within the world, you know, and within the world hopefully––to the world.

[00:18:22]
{SILENCE}

[00:18:26]
{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Alright, that gets back to the other question then, which is a more more difficult thing to discuss. But your sense of—-

[00:18:43]
{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Your own perception of your body of work in relation to the body of the work of other people that we can talk about––whether we're talking about Terrell or Irwin or Murray or doesn't matter what––is different––

[00:18:58]
{SPEAKER name="Jan Butterfield"}
Your perception of your own work is different from your perception of the work that they do individually and then taken to collectively[[?]]––

[00:19:06]
{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
Well I think what they do—–I think the perception——maybe I misperceive how they see their work or misunderstand––perhaps I totally misunderstand how they see their work

[00:19:23]
because it operates politically just simply because––perhaps on a very––the most simplistic level––because it's made for people. Ya know?

[00:19:37]
{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
But it's also––this pleasure, this treat, this entertainment, which is never provocative, never critical, never analytical of itself.

[00:19:55]
{SPEAKER name="Michael Asher"}
It can't be. Because it's an illusion...