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62           HELICOPTER AIR SERVICE PROGRAM
Mr. Halaby. If the ideas I have recounted prove to be feasible, it is certainly so.

Senator Lausche. That is, you have recounted or narrated certain fields in which there might be aid to keep these helicopter lines living without subsidy: is that correct?

Mr. Halaby. Yes, sir.

Senator Lausche. Is this your individual judgment?

Mr. Halaby. What, sir?

Senator Lausche. The judgment that the subsidy should be brought to an end?

Mr. Halaby. As a member of the administration on this subject, I don't believe I am entitled to an individual judgment, Senator.

Senator Lausche. I see. I will not pursue that thought.

[Laughter]

Mr. Halaby. Thank you.

Senator Lausche (presiding). Senator Hart?

Senator Hart. What are the additional activities that the man  in San Francisco engages in?

Mr. Halaby. Senator Hart, the whole thing has to be seen, as I see it, as a kind of flow of experience with this unusual machine. The military really worked on it in World War II. Soon after that - a couple of years after that - operations commenced in Los Angeles and new York, where there was dense population and different terrain. They each got some private capital, I would say sort of "gutsy" capita;, who were playing the long return on their investment and had to have, obviously, a lot of patience and courage, and a spirit of adventure.

The New York operation had been beset by a number of political problems, as all transportation area is, and some labor problems.

For example, is the pilot of a helicopter the same union, the same kind of level of pay, as the pilot of a long-range jet transport? Are the same labor-management standards applicable? 

Ne York Airways is fully unionized, and they have some rather unusual bargaining agreements. As a result, their pay scales are some 25 percent, I believe, higher than the gentleman in San Francisco-Oakland, who has a Marine Corps type operation, a sort of a gung-ho deal. He, therefore, on each flight has not only a lower pay scale but one less pilot. He is operating a helicopter under 12,500 pounds, so he is not required by our regulations to have the two pilots.

When he gets to the S-61, as he is just introducing, he has to carry two pilot, because it carries more people. We feel there ought to be two pilots, one of whom can actually take care of the passengers in an emergency under certain extraordinary conditions. Then, I think passenger service considerations have dictated to New York that they have an attendant to open and close the doors, and take care of people in flight. So, there is a three-man crew. I don't know what the Port of New York Authority is charging them to land at Idlewild, or rent at LaGuardia. There is a pretty well-heeled outfit that could subsidize a little bit.

San Francisco-Oakland has, I understand it, been supported by similar investors in San Francisco. They got  several of their managers and pilots from Los Angeles Airways who had been trained in Los Angeles, so they didn't have all that startup and training costs.