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302     HELICOPTER AIR SERVICE PROGRAM

This phase-out program, all these carriers will do is reduce the number of schedules, reduce the number of points served, in order to live within the limits of their reduced budget. This is what has happened in the last 2 years.

Senator MONRONEY. So it will be a lingering death?

Mr. BAGAN. It will be a lingering death. I think if this happens, in 3 or 4 years we will be right where we are now in helicopter movement.

I would like to see them get the subsidy. I think they need it. But I would like to see the program expanded and give other carriers and do the job right, and get the manufacturers, other cities and so forth. One reason we find, if we can get service in Miami, cell service in SFO, if we can get a service in Seattle, pushing service in SFO at Los Angeles, and all these helicopter carriers in every city pushing, we can push this whole thing over.

This is a tremendous thing. I have great faith. But I do not think a phase-out or deterioration should be done. We are close to the break-even need. I have to move forward.

Senator MONRONEY. There is a roll call vote. The committee will stand in recess.

Can you wind up in a very few minutes?

Mr. BAGAN. Yes.

Senator MONRONEY. We will recess for the vote.
(Recess.)

Senator MONRONEY. The committee will resume its session.

Mr. BAGAN. I want to reiterate a couple of points. On pages 11 and 12 of our testimony, we show what several Senators, including yourself, and other people have said about expanding the service.

I have read and I want to stress this: I think Congress has not taken the position that there shall be no future helicopter subsidy. But rather there shall be no more subsidy exclusively for the existing three subsidy carriers. As a matter of basic fairness, subsidy support for initial operations should be made available to other areas of the country, including San Francisco-Oakland Bay area, or that no subsidy should be made available to any helicopter carrier.

I believe that the time has come when we should all operate under the same rules. I don't think it is right to have United operate under different rules than TWA, and so forth. This is what happened in our industry. We are the only permanently certified airline; yet we don't have the right for subsidy like the other three.

I would like to close. In closing, I would like to say a few additional words about subsidy. Let me state at the outset I have no ax to grind against any of the certified helicopter carriers that have received subsidy payments, even though these payments amount to approximately $50 million over the years.

From the financial reports we have seen, more of these carriers would be able to show a profit except for the subsidy funds.

I have a strong feeling about the concentration of subsidy payments upon the three certified carriers, payments which have continued over an extended period of time, while every other operator or potential operator is denied the assistance of Federal aid, or even the opportunity to become eligible for subsidy assistance while establishing a proper case.