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5

the elusive abstractionists, they call themselves, is that their sources look much more toward the old masters and toward art history, as well as their personal experiences, because of course one doesn't avoid one's own autobiography in such matters. But it seems to me that the imagists, and maybe yourself as well, look outward and into popular culture -- I'm not the only one who's made that observation, but ...

Y: The vernacular.

G: ... I'm making the other half of it about the elusive abstractionists -- the part about the imagists has often been observed, looking toward the pop culture, the vernacular, everyday life. But I think it is an interesting and a valid approach to start young students off not on imitating the paintings of the Louvre perhaps, but ...

Y: It's another approach.

G: It seems to me kind of more recently that the schools are combining these two approaches as a matter of fact, beause I know Esther Sparks in her drawing classes, in her print and drawing classes, really makes students copy facsimiles of the old master drawings and this kind of things. Maybe that's the best of all worlds, a kind of balanced approach.

Y: I think so too.

G: So you showed in the Chicago and vicinity shows for a number of years and kind of resisted the invitations of Jim ___________ and others to participate in some of the earlier Harry Who (?) shows, although obviously they must have recognized that you had something very much in common with them in terms of your artistic interests... I see you are shaking your head.