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never been critical of the whole system of government subsidy for artists, was the fact that you had to practically declare yourself a pauper in order to get on this, in order to qualify. ...Well, you had to be on Relief. In other words, you had to apply for Relief, which was then, you know, state aid, which again means that you don't have anything. No insurance, there's nothing. So that was a little undignified, to say that least, for a respectable person. ...That's true. It was true that it was difficult, but you weren't really always quite that destitute. But, as I say, I could do certain jobs, washing dishes, I had done everything in my lifetime. Shine shoes. I was a bellhop. I used to work at summer camp, and a whole slew of things. But anyhow, that was the only thing really I had against me. But at twenty years, we qualified, my family and myself. And then I was assigned to the art project. You showed your work, you submitted it to a jury, it was accepted and you were qualified to apply for a job in a specific professional area like the art. ... Yes, I qualified for ______ painter, so I did that. And that was a beautiful thing... This art was generally based on what the artist could create. But the artist for the first time, I think it was a fantastic thing for a country to do because -27-