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didn't have that much foresight. I overemphasized the Surrealist connection, which is valid enough but in a more technical than esthetic, or intentional manner. It's Surrealist automatism that connects the now work to Pollack. At the same time Andre was important with his refusal to attack his units, his particles; he let the material itself take the burden of the work even though he didn't use the kinds of materials that change shape, as Oldenburg did. It is the arrangements that can change in Andre's work. Don Judd's ideas were also very important, even if his work bears no resemblance to the anti-formal or process or whatever works. Judd's and Stella's non-relationalism involved the idea that if you have six identical boxes, neither of them is any more important than the other; consequently, there is no order because order is hierarchy. In this sense Judd's work, which everybody thought was so cold and rational, is irrational. In Morris' last article, "Beyond Objects" there are a lot of Juddian ideas, applied very differently after five years. Judd, Chamberlain, Morris, Andre, and Oldenburg were all into materials in different very influential ways around 1966. Maybe the main connection between anti-form and so-called conceptual art is that idea of disorder. Sol LeWitt's serial works brought up the idea of non-visual sculpture, that is, visually unattractive results of exhaustive permutations which were as important to the conception as a whole as any of the visually attractive results. Kosuth, Hesse, Bochner, Smithson, Dan Graham all talked a lot to LeWitt in 1966-67.

UM: Judd endeavoured for some sort of perfection.

LL: Well, anti-form is no less preconceived than any other art. The results of the preconceptions are just different,