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it's not that women have one role which is, really is absurd. But one thing, you know, that bothers me about your whole approach is that it seems like you have to separate them completely and it's not like you can interact and that a male could decide that he like childrearing and that a woman, you know, his wife or whatever, likes executive work and why not completely switch roles and never think about, you know, "As a man I have to do this."

Because we can't... We're not in that place. I agree with you that's where we should be. Where we should be is a complete breakdown of roles, where anybody can do anything on the basis of what they want not on the basis of what they should. Men don't have to go out and be heroes; they can be soft and quiet if they want, and women don't have to stay home and make babies. It's a breakdown of all roles, we all could do everything; but we're emotionally not up to that. I don't think there are very many women who are equipped to really, first of all, be aggressive or assertive about what they want.

Q. Well, how do you deal with reactions you get from men when you assert yourself?

I've been getting used to tension. I really have. It used to get me wiped out, because I was being a bad girl; I was not being a good girl, I was not getting patted on the head; but you want o know something really weird, I'm going to tell you something. I always used to be afraid all these terrible things would happen if I really said what I believed, really terrible things; but you know, I have more friends now then I ever had in my life. And I don't know exactly why that is, but maybe it's because I don't care, maybe cause I'm not so frightened; and maybe because then other people don't have to be frightened wither who are around me, so maybe everybody ends up feeling better. I haven't quite figured it out, all I know is it's a really remarkable, delightful surprise to me. But at first, when I started, I mean the tension, like the tension that's in this room, or was in this room, you know, would just wipe me out. I mean I jus backed down, all the time and ran away cause I couldn't handle it. Bit I just got to the point where I figured, "Look, all men are sexists; all whites are racists; that's the way it is; we don't even mean to be that way; that's how we're brought up to be; it's nobody's fault." And soon as I began to realize that, I began to feel, "OK. So everybody's going to get up tight-- So everybody'll get up tight. So what?"

Q. (from man) So your idea of not talking to men is, actually what you're doing is just cutting their balls off, is that right?

No.

Man: You're castrating the shit out of us.